NHS Strike

[Tim of the Oak]

I have no idea who they even are but I think they just commented on the story, it wasn't their research It says the research was carried out by the Institute of Fiscal Studies (who I equally know nothing about).

There seems to be a big gap in the article / "research" about pension contributions - unless I have missed the obvious?

No idea what you mean there. Just copied it from <a class="postlink" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11152840/Public-vs-private-sector-pay-gap-is-5000-or-a-fifth-of-earnings.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... nings.html</a>

Thanks Knaresborough Blue

The article doesn't mention what percentage or amount of their salaries public and private workers are investing to get their respective pensions.

Yes pensions in the NHS are good (and typically better than the private sector) but without the pension contribution information, the earnings figures quoted could be misleading.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I will play along.

Urmston, what jobs do you think that a nurse (let's say just a standard run of the mill nurse with no management or extra responsibilities) should have a similar pay to?

Also, which other jobs aren't deserving of a pay rise?

I don't need to know the answers to either of those two questions. The market decides pay rates, not me.

But I do know that the NHS, broadly speaking, has no recruitment problems for most jobs. There is a vast oversubscription for nursing courses, courses for other medical jobs and courses for other public sector jobs like teaching, something which always happens in difficult economic times when the public sector is seen as especially attractive to youngsters seeking a secure and reasonably paid job. There is also high unemployment and high numbers of people who can only find part time work.

In view of these facts I would expect the pressure on NHS pay to be downwards in the next few years, not upwards.

I do agree that nurses and teachers are unlikely to be jobs that will have shortages in the near future. However, there could be a person really enthusiastic and perfect for the job of nurse/teacher and then when they see the pay on offer choose to go down a different career path. Therefore, by your supply and demand theory the patients/children have been deprived of getting the service they deserve.

There are already chronic shortages of emergency care nurses. Hospitals are routinely recruiting (again) from Spain and Portugal for nurses and paying agents finders fees.

Nurse training programmes are greatly oversubscribed but that's not the same as having experienced nurses / midwifes in theatres and on the wards. This is partly due to poor management not growing their own workforces. However, current market forces (for those relying on this argument) would justify higher pay for skilled nurses.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't need to know the answers to either of those two questions. The market decides pay rates, not me.

But I do know that the NHS, broadly speaking, has no recruitment problems for most jobs. There is a vast oversubscription for nursing courses, courses for other medical jobs and courses for other public sector jobs like teaching, something which always happens in difficult economic times when the public sector is seen as especially attractive to youngsters seeking a secure and reasonably paid job. There is also high unemployment and high numbers of people who can only find part time work.

In view of these facts I would expect the pressure on NHS pay to be downwards in the next few years, not upwards.

I do agree that nurses and teachers are unlikely to be jobs that will have shortages in the near future. However, there could be a person really enthusiastic and perfect for the job of nurse/teacher and then when they see the pay on offer choose to go down a different career path. Therefore, by your supply and demand theory the patients/children have been deprived of getting the service they deserve.

There are already chronic shortages of emergency care nurses. Hospitals are routinely recruiting (again) from Spain and Portugal for nurses and paying agents finders fees.

Nurse training programmes are greatly oversubscribed but that's not the same as having experienced nurses / midwifes in theatres and on the wards. This is partly due to poor management not growing their own workforces. However, current market forces (for those relying on this argument) would justify higher pay for skilled nurses.

You're another on his foe list mate. You can't come on here with facts that fly in the face of the free market and challenging Alfred Marshall and his pretty graph; you'll have him all hot and flustered in his entrenched and narrow microeconomic view of the world.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I do agree that nurses and teachers are unlikely to be jobs that will have shortages in the near future. However, there could be a person really enthusiastic and perfect for the job of nurse/teacher and then when they see the pay on offer choose to go down a different career path. Therefore, by your supply and demand theory the patients/children have been deprived of getting the service they deserve.

There are already chronic shortages of emergency care nurses. Hospitals are routinely recruiting (again) from Spain and Portugal for nurses and paying agents finders fees.

Nurse training programmes are greatly oversubscribed but that's not the same as having experienced nurses / midwifes in theatres and on the wards. This is partly due to poor management not growing their own workforces. However, current market forces (for those relying on this argument) would justify higher pay for skilled nurses.

You're another on his foe list mate. You can't come on here with facts that fly in the face of the free market and challenging Alfred Marshall and his pretty graph; you'll have him all hot and flustered in his entrenched and narrow microeconomic view of the world.

Cheers Mate

I spent the weekend in Urmston (either side of the 4-1) and I'm not surprised by our friend!!

 

[Anonymous]

Gorgeous George visits an 'ospickle:

 

[Blue Maverick]

Says it all really
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-bonuses-chiefs-pocket-116-3553527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nh ... 16-3553527</a>

 

[malg]

Says it all really
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-bonuses-chiefs-pocket-116-3553527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nh ... 16-3553527</a>

This happened under the last government as well. Senior managers don't just get paid a shit load of money, but that if they do their job, then they get a bonus as well. If the rest of us do a good job, we get to keep the job. Also, for them to do their job well they need to make cuts, thereby saving the organisation money (but not always making it better - that's why they pay someone a shit load to 'massage' statistics). This works all the way down the NHS, where they replace Band 4 jobs with Band 3, and Band 3 with Band 2. They have also started a nice little game in replacing staff on 37.5 hour contracts with people on 35 hour contracts. Cracking little job that, so they pay less in wages, and less hours - brilliant. They don't give a shite that they're fucking with people's lives, they just care that the bonus is there at the end of the year to top up their already inflated wages.

Hey, that's life though.......

 

[urmston]

UK public finance worsen as borrowing rises again

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/oct/21/china-growth-slows-uk-public-finances-business-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... iness-live</a>


When employers are in trouble they rarely give pay rises to their staff.

 

[Blue Maverick]

UK public finance worsen as borrowing rises again

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/oct/21/china-growth-slows-uk-public-finances-business-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... iness-live</a>


When employers are in trouble they rarely give pay rises to their staff.

Then why are the managers getting bonuses then?

 

[Anonymous]

UK public finance worsen as borrowing rises again

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/oct/21/china-growth-slows-uk-public-finances-business-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... iness-live</a>


When employers are in trouble they rarely give pay rises to their staff.

Then why are the managers getting bonuses then?

He's a busted flush and has no argument worth considering, even by his own admission.