Nicolas Otamendi - 2016/17 performances

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The problem with these stats is that they are quantitative, not qualitative. It doesn't show the headers he didn't contest because he was out of position, or how many of the duels that he lost led to a goalscoring chance.

Not to beat up on Otamendi, who I don't have a major problem with, just that the raw stats aren't ever going to be the whole story, especially with something as hard to codify as "good defending."
 
mavsmcfc said:
I understand that might be your perception of him, but the fact is Otamendi is a beast in the air and there's no way around it.

Whoscored shows that he has the best 'Aerial' score from all defenders in the Premier League. The number of aerial duels he won is second only to Virgil Van Dijk who is much taller and bigger than him.

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Squawka here showed he's 7th in the Premier League in Aerial duels despite playing the 2nd LEAST minutes compared to everyone in the top 10.
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Oh for Gods sake not again.

Have a look at how many aerial clearences Ben Mee has made.

He's useless in the air.
 
Dax777 said:
@mavsmcfc its not about the facts. Its just framing. Neville just wanted to give a negative opinion so he framed it that way. He knows the facts, but its best to undermine it by saying "only when no one puts in a decent challenge." In other words, he isn't disputing the facts, just simply explaining it away.

The other way folks do it is by saying "he was good today." In other words he is normally bad, but today he was good. In reality he has 4 very good games for every 1 bad game.

The most logical conclusion anyone should reach is that he is very good (I.e. that's the norm) but has a penchant for having howlers every once in a while.

But Nooooo, most see the 1 bad game in 5 as his norm and the other 4 games as him being good in individual games. Its one of those strange thing I've seen on here.
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No I'm actuallg going off years of watching players who are actually 'beasts' in the air & Otamendi s nowhere near any of them.

Your stats are fucking nonsense

And a bad game one in 5 for a centre back is dogshit, same as with a keeper.
 
Neville Kneville said:
No I'm actuallg going off years of watching players who are actually 'beasts' in the air & Otamendi s nowhere near any of them.

Your stats are fucking nonsense

And a bad game one in 5 for a centre back is dogshit, same as with a keeper.
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Again give me a name of a player from the last 3 years who was a beast in the air. Lets do a clinical comparison.

And why are you comparing Otamendi to historical players? Compare him to his contemporaries. Who is the beast in the air this season that you have seen that makes you think Ota is shit?

And who are the defenders you know who don't have 1 bad game every 5 games. Give me names and I'll prove you wrong.

It is easy to say Ota is shit when you compare him to a myth. It gets harder when you compare him to actual players.

Real Madrid isn't interested because they like shit players. Every indicator suggesting he is very good isn't lying and trying to trick you.

He is in fact good by non-mythical standards.
 
Neville Kneville said:
Oh for Gods sake not again.

Have a look at how many aerial clearences Ben Mee has made.

He's useless in the air.
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I take it you've watched every single minute that Ben Mee played this season? Probably not. But the stats are there - from every single minute that he played. Same thing goes with Otamendi.
 
Lancet Fluke said:
The fact that you are saying you WILL prove him wrong before he has even suggested anyone concerns me. It suggests to me you will do your usual stats and double dutch riddles combo to suit your argument.
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No, it simply means Otamendi on the average is so good that you wouldn't find anyone so much better that would justify you concluding he is Shit.

For example if someone has scored 20 goals this season, its hard to conclude he is a "shit striker." Sure you can find people who have scored 27 or 28. And you can conclude those are better. But this will only show how hard it is to find those who have scored more.

For someone to be shit, it should be easy to find both those who are good and those who are average that are better. If you have to struggle to find 2 names, you've already proved yourself wrong in concluding he was Shit.

If someone for example says Bravo is Shit, the fact that 18 of the other 19 starting keepers in the league have a better save % strongly supports their argument.

However if you say Otamendi is Shit in the air, but only 1 defender is outright better than him statistically, its easy to call bullshit on that one. The facts simply do not support the notion.
 
If Madrid offered our money back on him I would sell.

Excellent player when he wants to be but far too inconsistent.
 
FromPollockToSilva said:
The problem with these stats is that they are quantitative, not qualitative. It doesn't show the headers he didn't contest because he was out of position, or how many of the duels that he lost led to a goalscoring chance.

Not to beat up on Otamendi, who I don't have a major problem with, just that the raw stats aren't ever going to be the whole story, especially with something as hard to codify as "good defending."
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That is completely irrelevant here. The only thing that we're talking about here is whether he's shit in the air or he's a beast. He won more duels than anyone
 
Dax777 said:
No, it simply means Otamendi on the average is so good that you wouldn't find anyone so much better that would justify you concluding he is Shit.

For example if someone has scored 20 goals this season, its hard to conclude he is a "shit striker." Sure you can find people who have scored 27 or 28. And you can conclude those are better. But this will only show how hard it is to find those who have scored more.

For someone to be shit, it should be easy to find both those who are good and those who are average that are better. If you have to struggle to find 2 names, you've already proved yourself wrong in concluding he was Shit.

If someone for example says Bravo is Shit, the fact that 18 of the other 19 starting keepers in the league have a better save % strongly supports their argument.

However if you say Otamendi is Shit in the air, but only 1 defender is outright better than him statistically, its easy to call bullshit on that one. The facts simply do not support the notion.
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He's not shit in the air. He has a good jump. Just no strength, timing or aerial skill or ability to judge the flight of a ball. He would have been shit in the air ten years ago but there are few centre forwards around at the moment. Now he's ok but erratic.

I'm almost certain you have never in your life seen a true aerial player, in the flesh, in action. If you had, I doubt we would be having this discussion.

Who is better aerially, right now, than Otamendi ? First that comes to mind, because he's next door, Chris Smalling.

Is Smalling particularly good in the air ? Nope, he's just tall. But he's better than Otamendi. As is Fellaini. And Ibrahimovic. And plenty of others probably including Cahill & Luiz & that big twat at Liverpool & that German lump at Arsenal, half of Spurs' team, etc etc.

I don't give a fuck what your computer says. It will probably tell you Hummels was great tonight.
 
Neville Kneville said:
He's not shit in the air. He has a good jump. Just no strength, timing or aerial skill or ability to judge the flight of a ball. He would have been shit in the air ten years ago but there are few centre forwards around at the moment. Now he's ok but erratic.

I'm almost certain you have never in your life seen a true aerial player, in the flesh, in action. If you had, I doubt we would be having this discussion.

Who is better aerially, right now, than Otamendi ? First that comes to mind, because he's next door, Chris Smalling.

Is Smalling particularly good in the air ? Nope, he's just tall. But he's better than Otamendi. As is Fellaini. And Ibrahimovic. And plenty of others probably including Cahill & Luiz & that big twat at Liverpool & that German lump at Arsenal, half of Spurs' team, etc etc.

I don't give a fuck what your computer says. It will probably tell you Hummels was great tonight.
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How can you say Otamendi is shit in the air when he has won the most duel in the air? That's like saying Lukaku is a shit goalscorer despite scoring more goals than anyone in the Premier League, because fuck statistics right? Lukaku can score 100 goals a season but if Lukaku doesn't pass your eye test then he's shit.
 
mavsmcfc said:
How can you say Otamendi is shit in the air when he has won the most duel in the air? That's like saying Lukaku is a shit goalscorer despite scoring more goals than anyone in the Premier League, because fuck statistics right? Lukaku can score 100 goals a season but if Lukaku doesn't pass your eye test then he's shit.
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Tell me, does the first line of my post say Otanendi is shit in the air, or does it say Otamendi is not shit in the air ?

As for the rest.

Will I believe a load of bollocks unsubstatntiated unqalified stats vs what I see in the flesh every week ?

No fucking chance in hell.

And those who blindly do, should give up watching football.
 
Neville Kneville said:
Tell me, does the first line of my post say Otanendi is shit in the air, or does it say Otamendi is not shit in the air ?

As for the rest.

Will I believe a load of bollocks unsubstatntiated unqalified stats vs what I see in the flesh every week ?

No fucking chance in hell.

And those who blindly do, should give up watching football.
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Just no strength, timing or aerial skill or ability to judge the flight of a ball. = You just pretty much described that Otamendi is shit in the air.
 
mavsmcfc said:
Just no strength, timing or aerial skill or ability to judge the flight of a ball. = You just pretty much described that Otamendi is shit in the air.
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No. He is good at getting his head to the ball. He lacks the strength to hold off determined challenge, which means sometimes his headers go backwards or sideways rather than forwards, he lacks skill with his head & he is prone to running at the ball but going underneath it, again meaning his header will sometimes go backwards, sideways or on occasions he will miss the ball completely.

Hardly any of these things are covered by your stats & most will count as aerial duels won.


Thus, your stats are nonsense.
 
Dax777 said:
No, it simply means Otamendi on the average is so good that you wouldn't find anyone so much better that would justify you concluding he is Shit.

For example if someone has scored 20 goals this season, its hard to conclude he is a "shit striker." Sure you can find people who have scored 27 or 28. And you can conclude those are better. But this will only show how hard it is to find those who have scored more.

For someone to be shit, it should be easy to find both those who are good and those who are average that are better. If you have to struggle to find 2 names, you've already proved yourself wrong in concluding he was Shit.

If someone for example says Bravo is Shit, the fact that 18 of the other 19 starting keepers in the league have a better save % strongly supports their argument.

However if you say Otamendi is Shit in the air, but only 1 defender is outright better than him statistically, its easy to call bullshit on that one. The facts simply do not support the notion.
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I don't think he's shit, I think he's an ok defender who on occasion can be very good and on occasion be absolutely terrible. He has plenty of heart and plenty of the right attributes but for me he lacks judgement. So for instance I think he's good at slide tackling but I question his judgement of when to make slide tackles. I'm not one of those people who loves Mancini but I actually think otamendi could be a genuinely top defender if he got hold of him, he certainly made Zab, Kompany and Lescott excellent defenders from the raw material. Under managers who don't love the art of defending in that same way, I just see otamendi struggling with his decision making in a system where there is a lot of strain on the defenders at the times where the opposition do attack. If I was a central defender I definitely wouldn't join us if I had other decent options.
 
Neville Kneville said:
No. He is good at getting his head to the ball. He lacks the strength to hold off determined challenge, which means sometimes his headers go backwards or sideways rather than forwards, he lacks skill with his head & he is prone to running at the ball but going underneath it, again meaning his header will sometimes go backwards, sideways or on occasions he will miss the ball completely.

Hardly any of these things are covered by your stats & most will count as aerial duels won.


Thus, your stats are nonsense.
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Lol. Please do me a favor and find someone whose headers always go forward. You can't even do that in video games mate. So you're saying Smalling is good in the air because from the time that you see him "in flesh", his header always go forward and never backward or sideways?

A goal is a goal whether you blast it to the goal or you tap it in.

A tackle won is a tackle won no matter where the ball heads after that.

An aerial duel is won when you win the header between at least 2 people.

Fucking hell mate, what kind of drugs are you on?
 
mavsmcfc said:
A tackle won is a tackle won no matter where the ball heads after that.

An aerial duel is won when you win the header between at least 2 people.
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Neither of those two things are inherently positives.

A tackle won can be a tackle out of position that leaves the entire team exposed.

A header won can be an own goal.

This isn't a dig at Otamendi, this is me saying that some guy's tally chart for headers won isn't a sturdy foundation for rating a player's ability at them.
 
Tugay One Cup said:
Neither of those two things are inherently positives.

A tackle won can be a tackle out of position that leaves the entire team exposed.

A header won can be an own goal.

This isn't a dig at Otamendi, this is me saying that some guy's tally chart for headers won isn't a sturdy foundation for rating a player's ability at them.
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I wasn't saying those two things were positive. I'm just saying that's not what we're discussing here.

How is winning header not a sturdy foundation for a player's ability at heading?

Scoring goal is not a sturdy foundation for a player's ability to score too then?
 
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