mosssideblue
Well-Known Member
Fully agree with all of this.
Nicolas Otamendi - 2016/17 performances
- Thread starter Super Joey Hart
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ADegenerate
Well-Known Member
Seems like it's more about Costa and less to do with Nico to me. To each their own.
From a statistical POV Nico is a beast. Do you not place any value on that at all?
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...tal_duels_%/chances_created/defence_score#avg
It's not the first time Otamendi's been pushed off like a small child is it? It's a recurring them throughout his 2 seasons.
Take a look at those stats you posted and they show you the problem with him. He's in the Red, Bonucci Blue, Laporte Orange, Stones Yellow.
You look at those stats and see "LOOK! He's won so may more tackles than anyone else!"
What actually matters is that he's missing over 2x as many as the rest. And when you play in a high line, and he charges out of defence and misses a tackle, it leads to very dangerous situations, if not a 1v1. And he's missing more than he makes.
And it's the same with interceptions. He gets 3.4 interceptions per 90 minutes - miles better than anyone else. But it's also higher than Pique, or Boateng - two definitive Guardiola centrebacks. Why? Because they don't make the stupid gambles he does.
He makes 3.4 interceptions per game but if his success rate is as good as his tackling, that means he misses 4. And each one of those misses can turn into goals like Willian's on Saturday.
His needless jumping out of the line also get's him far more yellow cards than any of the other defenders in your comparison - usually completely unnecessarily as well. Which means in turn he is often left walking a tightrope and unable to make a cynical tackle when we might need him to.
What we need, what Guardiola needs, is a calm, composed defender who stays on his feet. Otamendi is not completely shite, but he's the exact opposite of what we need, and unfortunately he is showing an inability to change when required.
Tugay One Cup
Well-Known Member
Choked on my cereal reading this. Spot on.
It's not the first time Otamendi's been pushed off like a small child is it? It's a recurring them throughout his 2 seasons.
Take a look at those stats you posted and they show you the problem with him. He's in the Red, Bonucci Blue, Laporte Orange, Stones Yellow.
You look at those stats and see "LOOK! He's won so may more tackles than anyone else!"
What actually matters is that he's missing over 2x as many as the rest. And when you play in a high line, and he charges out of defence and misses a tackle, it leads to very dangerous situations, if not a 1v1. And he's missing more than he makes.
And it's the same with interceptions. He gets 3.4 interceptions per 90 minutes - miles better than anyone else. But it's also higher than Pique, or Boateng - two definitive Guardiola centrebacks. Why? Because they don't make the stupid gambles he does.
He makes 3.4 interceptions per game but if his success rate is as good as his tackling, that means he misses 4. And each one of those misses can turn into goals like Willian's on Saturday.
His needless jumping out of the line also get's him far more yellow cards than any of the other defenders in your comparison - usually completely unnecessarily as well. Which means in turn he is often left walking a tightrope and unable to make a cynical tackle when we might need him to.
What we need, what Guardiola needs, is a calm, composed defender who stays on his feet. Otamendi is not completely shite, but he's the exact opposite of what we need, and unfortunately he is showing an inability to change when required.
Agree with every single word. We let Hart go for his lack of composure and yet this guy is featuring every week.
01cravend
Well-Known Member
It's not the first time Otamendi's been pushed off like a small child is it? It's a recurring them throughout his 2 seasons.
Take a look at those stats you posted and they show you the problem with him. He's in the Red, Bonucci Blue, Laporte Orange, Stones Yellow.
You look at those stats and see "LOOK! He's won so may more tackles than anyone else!"
What actually matters is that he's missing over 2x as many as the rest. And when you play in a high line, and he charges out of defence and misses a tackle, it leads to very dangerous situations, if not a 1v1. And he's missing more than he makes.
And it's the same with interceptions. He gets 3.4 interceptions per 90 minutes - miles better than anyone else. But it's also higher than Pique, or Boateng - two definitive Guardiola centrebacks. Why? Because they don't make the stupid gambles he does.
He makes 3.4 interceptions per game but if his success rate is as good as his tackling, that means he misses 4. And each one of those misses can turn into goals like Willian's on Saturday.
His needless jumping out of the line also get's him far more yellow cards than any of the other defenders in your comparison - usually completely unnecessarily as well. Which means in turn he is often left walking a tightrope and unable to make a cynical tackle when we might need him to.
What we need, what Guardiola needs, is a calm, composed defender who stays on his feet. Otamendi is not completely shite, but he's the exact opposite of what we need, and unfortunately he is showing an inability to change when required.
Sagna - 45% tackle success rate
Otamendi - 44% tackle success rate
Zabaleta - 43 % tackle success rate
Stones - 42% tackle success rate
Kompany - 40% tackle success rate
Clichy - 40% tackle success rate
Kolarov - 33% tackle success rate
Fernandinho - 29% tackle success rate
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
It's not really the fact he was 'done' by Costa, which is the problem, it's the way he was 'done' by Costa.
If you were to make a list of Otamendi's strong points vs his weaknesses, you would put 'defending a hopeful ball upfront vs a big striker' right at the top of 'Otamendi Strong Points'.
He's got no pace, no judgement of when to attack the ball or try to intercept, frequently goes to ground & often reacts last to balls played into the box, but a long ball down he middle, Otta will 'have him'. That's what he would be brilliant at & where we can rely on him, you would imagine, someone hits a long aerial pass to an opposing cf, you expect Otamendi to be powering in & 'sorting him out'.
But, first of all, he's failed to see the danger & be ready for it, 2nd, he's misjudged the flight of the ball whears Costa is right on it, 3rd, he's misjudged Costa's movement & has his weight going the wrong way, 4th, when Costa cuts inside, Otamendi is so slow reacting over 2 yards, that he can't even get anywhere close to get a block in. The toughest part for Costa, was controlling the ball & picking his spot for the shot. Otamendi, basically might as well have sat down at the halfway line. & Costa would have picked the same position.
It's common v Otamendi, that if a player moves the ball quickly, he has 'done' him. Then Otamendi throws himself full length, at player & ball, to try & redeem the situation & win it back. Half the time he wins it, half the time he misses it, then he ceases to exist as a viable defender.
He is a very committed & keen defender who really wants to defend & works as hard as he can, to rescue situations & puts himself right in the thick of everything, unlike shithouses like Nastasic who leave it to everyone else.
But he is all about chucking himself at the ball. When it works, he's the best defender you could ever wish for. He has some games where most of it works, fantastic.
The other half of the time, he's a clueless bag of shite & nowhere near good enough.
He's had a year now & hasn't consistently improved 1 percent, still can't rely on him one game to the next.
All yours Pep, sort it out.
If you were to make a list of Otamendi's strong points vs his weaknesses, you would put 'defending a hopeful ball upfront vs a big striker' right at the top of 'Otamendi Strong Points'.
He's got no pace, no judgement of when to attack the ball or try to intercept, frequently goes to ground & often reacts last to balls played into the box, but a long ball down he middle, Otta will 'have him'. That's what he would be brilliant at & where we can rely on him, you would imagine, someone hits a long aerial pass to an opposing cf, you expect Otamendi to be powering in & 'sorting him out'.
But, first of all, he's failed to see the danger & be ready for it, 2nd, he's misjudged the flight of the ball whears Costa is right on it, 3rd, he's misjudged Costa's movement & has his weight going the wrong way, 4th, when Costa cuts inside, Otamendi is so slow reacting over 2 yards, that he can't even get anywhere close to get a block in. The toughest part for Costa, was controlling the ball & picking his spot for the shot. Otamendi, basically might as well have sat down at the halfway line. & Costa would have picked the same position.
It's common v Otamendi, that if a player moves the ball quickly, he has 'done' him. Then Otamendi throws himself full length, at player & ball, to try & redeem the situation & win it back. Half the time he wins it, half the time he misses it, then he ceases to exist as a viable defender.
He is a very committed & keen defender who really wants to defend & works as hard as he can, to rescue situations & puts himself right in the thick of everything, unlike shithouses like Nastasic who leave it to everyone else.
But he is all about chucking himself at the ball. When it works, he's the best defender you could ever wish for. He has some games where most of it works, fantastic.
The other half of the time, he's a clueless bag of shite & nowhere near good enough.
He's had a year now & hasn't consistently improved 1 percent, still can't rely on him one game to the next.
All yours Pep, sort it out.
MeatHunterrr
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 24 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 11,440
Spot on.It's not the first time Otamendi's been pushed off like a small child is it? It's a recurring them throughout his 2 seasons.
Take a look at those stats you posted and they show you the problem with him. He's in the Red, Bonucci Blue, Laporte Orange, Stones Yellow.
You look at those stats and see "LOOK! He's won so may more tackles than anyone else!"
What actually matters is that he's missing over 2x as many as the rest. And when you play in a high line, and he charges out of defence and misses a tackle, it leads to very dangerous situations, if not a 1v1. And he's missing more than he makes.
And it's the same with interceptions. He gets 3.4 interceptions per 90 minutes - miles better than anyone else. But it's also higher than Pique, or Boateng - two definitive Guardiola centrebacks. Why? Because they don't make the stupid gambles he does.
He makes 3.4 interceptions per game but if his success rate is as good as his tackling, that means he misses 4. And each one of those misses can turn into goals like Willian's on Saturday.
His needless jumping out of the line also get's him far more yellow cards than any of the other defenders in your comparison - usually completely unnecessarily as well. Which means in turn he is often left walking a tightrope and unable to make a cynical tackle when we might need him to.
What we need, what Guardiola needs, is a calm, composed defender who stays on his feet. Otamendi is not completely shite, but he's the exact opposite of what we need, and unfortunately he is showing an inability to change when required.
supercity88
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 9 Aug 2009
- Messages
- 13,891
All of this also means his partnering centre back either has to be absolute lightning to cover the space left open, or an absolute leader who marshalls Otamendi and stops him from diving in. A back "three" involving Otamendi and Kolarov is suicide. On top of the issues with Otamendi as per your summary, you have a player who just switches off completely and makes no real attempt to tackle of win the ball. A player that isn't aware positionally and isn't quick enough to cover the ground. You're then left with a young English ball playing centre back who is learning the game and still prone to the odd error of judgement themselves. But you're trying to teach them the game in a defence full of issues.
We still don't have a solid defensive "style" of play. Passing out from the back is fine if positionally everyone knows where their place is on the pitch. Barca play an obvious game, keeper has the ball, centre backs go wide of the box, Busquets goes towards the box, in the centre of the pitch and the full backs keep wide. Passing is accurate, touch is on point and it works 90% of the time. With pressing they're still prone to errors as we saw in our two games against them.
We've still not nailed this. A lot of it is down to constant change at the back but that's all part of Pep seeing who can do what. He's still much more focussed on overall style of play and seeing what works best. He knows errors will occur but is looking at the bigger picture for now.
People point to the need to invest in full backs. I don't question that, but I think fundamentally a good full back under Pep just has to be quick to cover ground up and down the pitch and be a presence at the back. Defending isn't the main priority. Alves is a prime example. Not the best defender but rarely needed to be because of Barcelona's strategy of keeping the ball and pressing the opposition. When they did get in behind, he could cover ground and get back.
I think we still need two centre backs. Or we need to give more time to the likes of Tosin. Stones for me has the attributes to make it. I think we need another two of similar ilk. Stones could play a role similar to Luiz, and I think we need someone with some pace in the back too.
Confidence and familiarity are two crucial elements of a defence though. Maybe we're over analysing and just keeping the same defence for a while, getting a few clean sheets and gaining that familiarity will solve the issues?!
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