North Stand Construction Discussion

[jrb]

I still don't understand why you think corporate/hospitality means less atmosphere, that's not always the case.

Sections like the Wembley club are a joke but in my experience a lot of the corporate section of grounds have plenty of atmosphere, and if someone wants a nice bar to go into before and at half time , have a drink and a bite to eat, I am not sure you or me has any right to tell them different or to say they will not add to the atmosphere.

And by the way, this is nothing personal to you, your contributions on this thread are superb and I very much appreciate the photo's you post.

Thanks.

No offence mate, but there's no similarity at all between a singing section and a hospitality section when it comes to creating an atmosphere. I accept fans in hospitality sections can be and are as passionate about City, as City fans are in the singing sections, but as a rule they don't sing anywhere near much as fans in a singing sections. I'm not saying they don't sing, stand up, swear, etc, because they do, but they don't physically stand up all through the match, start chants off, and sing. They pay the premium ticket price to sit down and to watch the match. That's fine. That's what they want to do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[nmc]

It's only frustrating if you allow upurself to be , nothing about them frustrates me now adays , unlike 20 odd years ago

Today we don’t know we are born…. The dark days of Swales et al have long departed and we should be grateful for everything we have - in the early 90s we could never have dreamed it would have worked out how it has… but still some people aren’t satisfied. I remember on 606 a good few years ago a Charlton fan ringing in and slagging off Alan Curbishley and saying they needed to think bigger - that fan must now look back on the 15 years they had CurbIshey as some sort of golden era (as the languish in League One) and I’m sure we will look back on Pep in a similar way. Perhaps we should be grateful and enjoy what we’ve got and appreciate we have never had it this good - and despite all the charges etc there isn’t a fan in the league who doesn‘t wish ADUG had chosen them.

 

[jrb]

On a scale of 1 to 10, how worried are you that they won't? I don't mean to labour this point as we have discussed it to death, but you really seem concerned regardless of other different takes on it.

It's impossible to say with City because they never feed anything directly back to the fans. They have meetings with different fan groups, and fan focus groups, but they ask those fans to keep what's being discussed confidential. So outside of those fan groups the wider City fan base knows nothing at all or very little about what the plans are for the North stand, as an example. Yes we can go off the PA for ideas of what might or will be be planned, but that doesn't mean those plans can't be changed by the club whilst the North stand is under construction.

The last I heard is the club are still looking at various options regarding the North stand. I'm not saying nothing is already set in stone, but I believe the club are trying to find a way of driving revenue, whilst at the same time trying to create a proper and atmospheric home end that all the fans want. There are more meetings planned with fan groups.

What has concerned me and other City fans are the recent comments by one of the directors, sorry, forgot who it was, about the limited capacity of the Etihad, and the need to further drive match day revenues, which includes the North stand redevelopment.(I would be very grateful if somebody could repost that that article again or PM it to me)

Hopefully my concerns are misplaced and the club can and do deliver the atmospheric home end most of our support wants?

 

[supercity88]

It's impossible to say with City because they never feed anything directly back to the fans. They have meetings with different fan groups, and fan focus groups, but they ask those fans to keep what's being discussed confidential. So outside of those fan groups the wider City fan base knows nothing at all or very little about what the plans are for the North stand, as an example. Yes we can go off the PA for ideas of what might or will be be planned, but that doesn't mean those plans can't be changed by the club whilst the North stand is under construction.

The last I heard is the club are still looking at various options regarding the North stand. I'm not saying nothing is already set in stone, but I believe the club are trying to find a way of driving revenue, whilst at the same time trying to create a proper and atmospheric home end that all the fans want. There are more meetings planned with fan groups.

What has concerned me and other City fans are the recent comments by one of the directors, sorry, forgot who it was, about the limited capacity of the Etihad, and the need to further drive match day revenues, which includes the North stand redevelopment.(I would be very grateful if somebody could repost that that article again or PM it to me)

Hopefully my concerns are misplaced and the club can and do deliver the atmospheric home end most of our support wants?

That was De Vries who was quoted as saying:

"We cannot easily expand the (Etihad) stadium beyond 60,000. So then we have to figure out, ‘How can we squeeze a lot more out of the stadium?"

I don't worry too much about what he said to be honest. The plans include a hotel, new City square, club store, museum, skywalk so plenty of things to boost revenue significantly. They'll know based on ticket sales what the limits are for certain games.

People are kidding themselves if they think the club will prioritise an atmosphere and cheap tickets over revenues, but I do think they'll strike a balance. And the proposals do that. You've got boxes at the top, some GA+ seating which on the face of it looks like a very basic "hospitality" offering and then a load of GA tickets. There will be another 8000 or so people in attendance so revenues will climb naturally.

The club just need to market the NS to the right people, prioritise existing season ticket holders - get a load of our younger hardcore support in there and build from there. 700 GA+ might not be ideal, but it shouldn't stop 8,000 others making a racket. We took 9,000 to Spurs split across different tiers and blocks and it was rocking. Even if we "only" had 5,000 hardcore in the NS, in one tier under the roof with the acoustics it will lift the whole ground.

As for plans and things being changed, that's where I'm more sceptical. These proposals are the result of a lot of design work, costing and meetings with the Council. They token gesture consultation was just to tick a box. The plans will be delivered as shown in the application and the only things left for the club to sort are safe standing, which they should be pushed to do where possible, and how they'll market the additional seats.

For me that doesn't need a lot of thinking through. Speak to those that drive atmosphere now, do a survey from fans and do whatever suits the majority. Market for existing season ticket holders first, with some incentive to form a home end. Then give fair time for people to relocate and then go to the waiting list. People on the waiting list can pay more money, the existing season ticket holders should be given the opportunity to pay less or have their existing price frozen for a number of years if they have to relocate.

 

[Coatigan]

It's impossible to say with City because they never feed anything directly back to the fans. They have meetings with different fan groups, and fan focus groups, but they ask those fans to keep what's being discussed confidential. So outside of those fan groups the wider City fan base knows nothing at all or very little about what the plans are for the North stand, as an example. Yes we can go off the PA for ideas of what might or will be be planned, but that doesn't mean those plans can't be changed by the club whilst the North stand is under construction.

The last I heard is the club are still looking at various options regarding the North stand. I'm not saying nothing is already set in stone, but I believe the club are trying to find a way of driving revenue, whilst at the same time trying to create a proper and atmospheric home end that all the fans want. There are more meetings planned with fan groups.

What has concerned me and other City fans are the recent comments by one of the directors, sorry, forgot who it was, about the limited capacity of the Etihad, and the need to further drive match day revenues, which includes the North stand redevelopment.(I would be very grateful if somebody could repost that that article again or PM it to me)

Hopefully my concerns are misplaced and the club can and do deliver the atmospheric home end most of our support wants?

I'll put you down as a 6 then ;).

If your main concern seems to be based on the assumption that a)people on same spaced out seats with padding don't sing, and b) that 640 seats in this location out if 12000ish will make that big a difference, then I will again say I really don't think it is that much of a cause for alarm.

If you are worried there will be other changes and additional introduction of corporate etc, I'd assume that's even less likely.

But who can say either way, time will tell.

 

[jrb]

That was De Vries who was quoted as saying:

"We cannot easily expand the (Etihad) stadium beyond 60,000. So then we have to figure out, ‘How can we squeeze a lot more out of the stadium?"

I don't worry too much about what he said to be honest. The plans include a hotel, new City square, club store, museum, skywalk so plenty of things to boost revenue significantly. They'll know based on ticket sales what the limits are for certain games.

People are kidding themselves if they think the club will prioritise an atmosphere and cheap tickets over revenues, but I do think they'll strike a balance. And the proposals do that. You've got boxes at the top, some GA+ seating which on the face of it looks like a very basic "hospitality" offering and then a load of GA tickets. There will be another 8000 or so people in attendance so revenues will climb naturally.

The club just need to market the NS to the right people, prioritise existing season ticket holders - get a load of our younger hardcore support in there and build from there. 700 GA+ might not be ideal, but it shouldn't stop 8,000 others making a racket. We took 9,000 to Spurs split across different tiers and blocks and it was rocking. Even if we "only" had 5,000 hardcore in the NS, in one tier under the roof with the acoustics it will lift the whole ground.

As for plans and things being changed, that's where I'm more sceptical. These proposals are the result of a lot of design work, costing and meetings with the Council. They token gesture consultation was just to tick a box. The plans will be delivered as shown in the application and the only things left for the club to sort are safe standing, which they should be pushed to do where possible, and how they'll market the additional seats.

For me that doesn't need a lot of thinking through. Speak to those that drive atmosphere now, do a survey from fans and do whatever suits the majority. Market for existing season ticket holders first, with some incentive to form a home end. Then give fair time for people to relocate and then go to the waiting list. People on the waiting list can pay more money, the existing season ticket holders should be given the opportunity to pay less or have their existing price frozen for a number of years if they have to relocate.

I'll put you down as a 6 then ;).

If your main concern seems to be based on the assumption that a)people on same spaced out seats with padding don't sing, and b) that 640 seats in this location out if 12000ish will make that big a difference, then I will again say I really don't think it is that much of a cause for alarm.

If you are worried there will be other changes and additional introduction of corporate etc, I'd assume that's even less likely.

But who can say either way, time will tell.

Maybe I am over thinking it? 2 more years of over thinking it is too much to contemplate. :-? I'm not fretting about it. What will be, will be. When city decide on something they tend to do it regardless of how the fans feel about it. But as this really is the clubs last chance to improve the atmosphere at the Etihad, then I sincerely hope they grasp the opportunity.

I best stick to taking pictures of the North stand construction, and let the club get on with bringing forward the North stand. :-)

 

[supercity88]

I'll put you down as a 6 then ;).

If your main concern seems to be based on the assumption that a)people on same spaced out seats with padding don't sing, and b) that 640 seats in this location out if 12000ish will make that big a difference, then I will again say I really don't think it is that much of a cause for alarm.

If you are worried there will be other changes and additional introduction of corporate etc, I'd assume that's even less likely.

But who can say either way, time will tell.

I’m quite sceptical when it comes to the club’s regard for the fans, but I think they deserve some credit for these proposals.

People seem to forget they are well within their rights to create a home end full of GA+ and full blown hospitality. They’ve not done that. We’re talking about 700 GA+ seats, it could have been 3,000. We’d have still have 6,000 blues to make a racket in there. Considering the noise 3,000 away fans can make if grouped and with the right acoustics, we should be excited about the opportunity to have circa 8,000 with a further 700 who most certainly will join in. The racket that section can make will inspire the rest of the ground far more than the disjointed SSL1 and L3 can currently. And naturally 60,000+ people will make things louder than 53k.

I also don’t look too much into De Vries’ comments. He said “not easy” he didn’t say “impossible”. If there are wider opportunities and the club can work out a way to manage the logistics then I’m certain they’ll press the button in the future even if it led to temporary closures etc. Real and Barca have both made that call recently, if their accounts start pushing their revenues way beyond ours then you can be sure we’ll be motivated to make the decision.

 

[supercity88]

Maybe I am over thinking it? 2 more years of over thinking it is too much to contemplate. :-? I'm not fretting about it. What will be, will be. When city decide on something they tend to do it regardless of how the fans feel about it. But as this really is the clubs last chance to improve the atmosphere at the Etihad, then I sincerely hope they grasp the opportunity.

I best stick to taking pictures of the North stand construction, and let the club get on with bringing forward the North stand. :-)

Pretty much replied to this before you posted it. I don't think you're overthinking it, I just think you're naturally a bit sceptical because we know revenues are the driving force behind decisions. But as I said above, they could have created plenty more hospitality areas within this design, and instead they've looked to maximise revenues from the wider facilities, the sky boxes and all that's really left to fret about is the impact of 700 padded seats amongst a wall of 9000 blues! Under 10%. It will be fine!

 

[Didsbury Dave]

That was De Vries who was quoted as saying:

"We cannot easily expand the (Etihad) stadium beyond 60,000. So then we have to figure out, ‘How can we squeeze a lot more out of the stadium?"

I don't worry too much about what he said to be honest. The plans include a hotel, new City square, club store, museum, skywalk so plenty of things to boost revenue significantly. They'll know based on ticket sales what the limits are for certain games.

People are kidding themselves if they think the club will prioritise an atmosphere and cheap tickets over revenues, but I do think they'll strike a balance. And the proposals do that. You've got boxes at the top, some GA+ seating which on the face of it looks like a very basic "hospitality" offering and then a load of GA tickets. There will be another 8000 or so people in attendance so revenues will climb naturally.

The club just need to market the NS to the right people, prioritise existing season ticket holders - get a load of our younger hardcore support in there and build from there. 700 GA+ might not be ideal, but it shouldn't stop 8,000 others making a racket. We took 9,000 to Spurs split across different tiers and blocks and it was rocking. Even if we "only" had 5,000 hardcore in the NS, in one tier under the roof with the acoustics it will lift the whole ground.

As for plans and things being changed, that's where I'm more sceptical. These proposals are the result of a lot of design work, costing and meetings with the Council. They token gesture consultation was just to tick a box. The plans will be delivered as shown in the application and the only things left for the club to sort are safe standing, which they should be pushed to do where possible, and how they'll market the additional seats.

For me that doesn't need a lot of thinking through. Speak to those that drive atmosphere now, do a survey from fans and do whatever suits the majority. Market for existing season ticket holders first, with some incentive to form a home end. Then give fair time for people to relocate and then go to the waiting list. People on the waiting list can pay more money, the existing season ticket holders should be given the opportunity to pay less or have their existing price frozen for a number of years if they have to relocate.

What the club need to realise, and I'm not convinced they do, is that matchday atmosphere will drive corporate revenue. People will want to be part of an improved matchday experience.

I happen to know that City's corporate sales are low compared to rivals, but I don't believe they need to be putting new areas into a new stand when they have 80% of the second tier still to go at - the natural home for stadium hospitality.

This move stands or fails, as you said, on the relocation logistics. Picking up on a point made earlier, we need an organised fan group - not 1894 or the supporter's clubs but a dedicated "Atmosphere Action Group" with representation from all of these groups, to push the club into making the right calls. The way they handled the new South Stand tier proves to me they do not understand properly. there was a bit of a push at the time ("Operation One End") but it wasn't loud enough to achieve anything and they ballsed that opportunity up big time.

They cannot take a "Build it and they will come" approach here. They have to make big decisions about the prioritisation of relocations and pricing.

 

[Coatigan]

I’m quite sceptical when it comes to the club’s regard for the fans, but I think they deserve some credit for these proposals.

People seem to forget they are well within their rights to create a home end full of GA+ and full blown hospitality. They’ve not done that. We’re talking about 700 GA+ seats, it could have been 3,000. We’d have still have 6,000 blues to make a racket in there. Considering the noise 3,000 away fans can make if grouped and with the right acoustics, we should be excited about the opportunity to have circa 8,000 with a further 700 who most certainly will join in. The racket that section can make will inspire the rest of the ground far more than the disjointed SSL1 and L3 can currently. And naturally 60,000+ people will make things louder than 53k.

I also don’t look too much into De Vries’ comments. He said “not easy” he didn’t say “impossible”. If there are wider opportunities and the club can work out a way to manage the logistics then I’m certain they’ll press the button in the future even if it led to temporary closures etc. Real and Barca have both made that call recently, if their accounts start pushing their revenues way beyond ours then you can be sure we’ll be motivated to make the decision.

Agree, but I'll just quickly point out that the circa 8000 you mention is just the new extened part, i.e the increase. The overall north stand will be circa 12000, including the existing tier1. Which will have a say in the atmosphere too, and those 648 GA+ seats.

I don't read anything into his comments at all. He is justifying, at this point, the ancillary uses and extra non match-day accommodation. That's all he is doing.