North Stand expansion - seating, ticketing etc

[jrb]

I agree, but my point is, there are a few on here who are quite vocal in that they now won't move to the new end as they don't want to be at the back, fair enough.

There are also a fair few who enjoy the banter with the away fans so won't move from the corner of East and the first few blocks of SS Level 1,2,3.

Primarily these are the loudest sections (from where I sit) so without them moving I don't think it's going to be the passionate home end people want. I do genuinely hope i'm wrong. I'm in CB Level 3 and it's like a library for 90% of games unfortunately but I want to sit with my Old Man and he won't sit anywhere else as the view is so good.

I'm not being vocal, I'm just being honest.

Why don't you question the club and how it has decided to arrange the seating and fans on NSL2?

Why have 3000 safe standing fans and potential singers been split up and dispersed to the back and sides of NSL2, instead of being all together?

I'll tell you why. The centre seats sell for more money, and the side seats are harder to sell, so let's put the safe standing seats at the back and on the sides of NSL2.

 

[Coatigan]

I agree, but my point is, there are a few on here who are quite vocal in that they now won't move to the new end as they don't want to be at the back, fair enough.

There are also a fair few who enjoy the banter with the away fans so won't move from the corner of East and the first few blocks of SS Level 1,2,3.

Primarily these are the loudest sections (from where I sit) so without them moving I don't think it's going to be the passionate home end people want. I do genuinely hope i'm wrong. I'm in CB Level 3 and it's like a library for 90% of games unfortunately but I want to sit with my Old Man and he won't sit anywhere else as the view is so good.

I personally think it could be a good thing if they don't move. Opens up the potential of having two vocal ends!

 

[blueparrot]

I'm not being vocal, I'm just being honest.

Why don't you question the club and how it has decided to arrange the seating and fans on NSL2?

Why have 3000 safe standing fans and potential singers been split up and dispersed to the back and sides of NSL2, instead of being all together?

I'll tell you why. The centre seats sell for more money, and the side seats are harder to sell, so let's put the safe standing seats at the back and on the sides of NSL2.

Is it not simply you can’t have fans sitting behind those standing? Suppose you could have had all the rail seats to one side ,there still have been half of them towards the back though.

 

[Coatigan]

Yep, at the moment, the only GA+ seats are at the back of tier 0 (new money) and will be under the overhang of tier 1 and won't affect anything. As they've stated no fans will be moved in tier 1 for the Cross Bar it looks like the original plans for a GA+ section at the front of tier 1 has been kicked into touch. Perhaps there'll be a small block further back in the new seats (just behind the hoardings as of now) but if so they'll be between the 2 exits shown on the sectional below as the lower exit will be needed for access to the bar and they'll be a very small number I think. Presumably, the row for ambulants will be in there somewhere too.

That gives the seats and safe standing from the higher of the exits up and to either side for a vocal home crowd. That roof will work brilliantly for sound.

Edit: if it works as intended, I can see the safe standing coming all the way down to the higher exit in the future.

View attachment 173205

Which is why I think the GA+ and bar won't/can't move (up a level). Whether the space becomes something else in a swap with the city hall below, or whether there is further GA+ added below as well as that location is the bigger question.

 

[jrb]

Is it not simply you can’t have fans sitting behind those standing? Suppose you could have had all the rail seats to one side ,there still have been half of them towards the back though.

City could have put all the 3000 safe standing fans across the back off NSL2, but that would have eaten into the centre seats past row 14 from the back, where the new singing section stops.

 

[Coatigan]

City could have put all the 3000 safe standing fans across the back off NSL2, but that would have eaten into the centre seats past row 14 from the back, where the new singing section stops.

Ever think there might be multiple considerations to it?

 

[blueparrot]

City could have put all the 3000 safe standing fans across the back off NSL2, but that would have eat into the centre seats past row 14 from the back, where the new singing section stops.

So then there’d have been no standing at all near the front, thought your objection was having the standing at the top of the new tier. As it is if the 3000 are extended it will be from the back and eat into those 14 rows anyway.

 

[Bert Swift]

Atmosphere Improvement - New, Large North Stand & Lower South Stand - For and Against

What do 1894 and others think about the points below?

What do you agree with and why?

What do you not agree with and why?

Lets focus on facts and what we can realistically achieve.

North Stand - For

1. One, large, complete home end in Level 2.
2. New, wrap round design, better acoustics, visually impressive and dominant. The sound will BOOM.
3. 3000 guaranteed rail seats.
4. More rail seats can be incorporated down both sides. How & when?
5. General Admission (GA) seating in the middle. There is more chance these fans will join in the singing as the rear and the side standing will envelop the GA.
6. Probably will be lower priced seats towards the rear of the North Stand compared with the existing South Stand lower level.
7. The majority of fans in existing North Stand level 1 and level 2 are not impacted.
8. The small numbers displaced from existing seats have the option to move, with family and friends, to better seats for the same price. They are unlikely to be disadvantaged and could be better placed.
9. In the overall scheme, approx. 600 ? GA+ seats should have no impact on atmosphere generated by at least 3000 more fans stood further behind, more fans stood along the sides, and a large GA area.
10. An opportunity to be welcomed, not missed, and maximised to improve atmosphere.

North Stand - Against

What are the downsides ?

South Stand - Against

1. Split over 3 levels
2. Little cohesion between the different levels.
3. The lower level is too small with a low rake.
4. Sound deadening overhang at the rear of the lower level.
5. Not a `proper`, complete end by any definition.
6. The middle and upper levels have to be allocated to away fans for cup matches. They usually dominate the singing in City`s so called home `end`.
7. Overall, the SS design does not work well for atmosphere.
8. There is little scope, due to layout and design, for it to be much better.
9. Pricing - the lower level is higher priced compared with the rear of the upper tier.

South Stand Lower Level - For

1.Time and effort have been spent building up the lower level into a safe seating area. It remains the area where atmosphere is generated most often.
2.Visible displays. There have been some good ones. They are only visible for a short time before being rolled away. The amount of time, effort and cost of displays is significant. If the view is that they are an atmosphere generator, could they still be rolled out in the NS lower level?
3.Some fans are settled and like lower level 1 viewing.
4. So called `banter` with away fans. How does this contribute to atmosphere supporting the team?
5. The type of facilities on the level 0 concourse are liked.

Can we put aside who said what, to who and when? Lets deal with the here and now.

 

[jrb]

So then there’d have been no standing at all near the front, thought your objection was having the standing at the top of the new tier. As it is if the 3000 are extended it will be from the back and eat into those 14 rows anyway.

I've never objected against anything. I've just discussed it.

City do what they want to do.

Not for one second did I ever think safe standing seats would be at the front of NSL2. That was confirmed when I read the PA.

I said keeping the 3000 safe standing seats together at the back of NSL2, and further down NSL2, is better than splitting them up across NSL2.

I'm absolutely guessing here, but City have probably dispersed 1000-2000 safe standing seats down the sides of NSL2 instead of keeping all the safe standing seats together at the back of NSL2.

 

[blueparrot]

I've never objected against anything. I've just discussed it.

City do what they want to do.

Not for one second did I ever think safe standing seats would be at the front of NSL2. That was confirmed when I read the PA.

I said keeping the 3000 safe standing seats together at the back of NSL2, and further down NSL2, is better than splitting them up across NSL2.

I'm absolutely guessing here, but City have probably disappeared 1000-2000 safe standing seats down the sides of NSL2, instead of keeping all the safe standing seats together at the back of NSL2.

Think thats better myself, especially if you want those seated close to the standing areas to join in. And IMO it’s people close to the standing joining in and maybe standing more that will be one of the drivers that encourage the club to convert more seats to rail seats.

 

[Centurions]

Think thats better myself, especially if you want those seated close to the standing areas to join in. And IMO it’s people close to the standing joining in and maybe standing more that will be one of the drivers that encourage the club to convert more seats to rail seats.

100% agree with your latter point at the very least.

 

[Centurions]

Atmosphere Improvement - New, Large North Stand & Lower South Stand - For and Against

What do 1894 and others think about the points below?

What do you agree with and why?

What do you not agree with and why?

Lets focus on facts and what we can realistically achieve.

North Stand - For

1. One, large, complete home end in Level 2.
2. New, wrap round design, better acoustics, visually impressive and dominant. The sound will BOOM.
3. 3000 guaranteed rail seats.
4. More rail seats can be incorporated down both sides. How & when?
5. General Admission (GA) seating in the middle. There is more chance these fans will join in the singing as the rear and the side standing will envelop the GA.
6. Probably will be lower priced seats towards the rear of the North Stand compared with the existing South Stand lower level.
7. The majority of fans in existing North Stand level 1 and level 2 are not impacted.
8. The small numbers displaced from existing seats have the option to move, with family and friends, to better seats for the same price. They are unlikely to be disadvantaged and could be better placed.
9. In the overall scheme, approx. 600 ? GA+ seats should have no impact on atmosphere generated by at least 3000 more fans stood further behind, more fans stood along the sides, and a large GA area.
10. An opportunity to be welcomed, not missed, and maximised to improve atmosphere.

North Stand - Against

What are the downsides ?

South Stand - Against

1. Split over 3 levels
2. Little cohesion between the different levels.
3. The lower level is too small with a low rake.
4. Sound deadening overhang at the rear of the lower level.
5. Not a `proper`, complete end by any definition.
6. The middle and upper levels have to be allocated to away fans for cup matches. They usually dominate the singing in City`s so called home `end`.
7. Overall, the SS design does not work well for atmosphere.
8. There is little scope, due to layout and design, for it to be much better.
9. Pricing - the lower level is higher priced compared with the rear of the upper tier.

South Stand Lower Level - For

1.Time and effort have been spent building up the lower level into a safe seating area. It remains the area where atmosphere is generated most often.
2.Visible displays. There have been some good ones. They are only visible for a short time before being rolled away. The amount of time, effort and cost of displays is significant. If the view is that they are an atmosphere generator, could they still be rolled out in the NS lower level?
3.Some fans are settled and like lower level 1 viewing.
4. So called `banter` with away fans. How does this contribute to atmosphere supporting the team?
5. The type of facilities on the level 0 concourse are liked.

Can we put aside who said what, to who and when? Lets deal with the here and now.

In regards to "In the overall scheme, approx. 600 ? GA+ seats should have no impact on atmosphere generated by at least 3000 more fans stood further behind, more fans stood along the sides, and a large GA area." we don't actually know if there are any GA+ seats in tier 1 (I'm sticking to the new naming conventions as it becomes confusing mixing the two). There's mention of maybe a small number that may have to move at the back of tier 0 for the City Hall option. They say that City Hall is "A new experience for around 500 fans on matchdays, and a hub for events on non-matchdays. This enhanced bar experience will be located at the back of Level 0 (formerly known as Level 1).", this is confusing at best as City Hall did have a capacity of 1,800. There is nothing stated yet on whether that 500 figure will be located in a small block at the back of tier 0 or not but presumably so, although the figure could be lower or higher.

 

[BLUE PEANUT]

@jrb & @Manchester33, the lower south stand and Kippax corner need to move to the new North Stand to help create a home end. We need the 1894 to speak to the club now, along with City Matters, to demand change to the set-up of the North Stand before everything changes for the worse

The 1894 and City Matters fought for change last season and made the chairman come out with these hollow words

As Khaldoon said this "This is a relationship built on trust between the fans and the club, and that trust comes both ways. And I think this issue on ticketing is no doubt some that has, I am not okay with the way it played out. I think the management team is working very closely with City Matters, addressing and understanding the issues that are key to solving any issues, you have to understand what the issues are, and you have to really constructively speak and try to work it out. What I am sure about, and this message comes out loud and clear, is that the relationship of trust between the fans and the club is the foundation of the success and sustainability of this club, and we know that and we appreciate that deeply. These conversations with City Matters and our fans will continue, and we will try to find solutions to always address some of the challenges in a way that is fair for everyone. Some announcements have been made so far but there is more to come we're going to work We're going to work hard together to find the optimal solutions that work for everyone

We need you to do the same to get a proper North Stand a BLUE WALL

Just now, in the post above, it's coming over as more bothered about winding up away fans than creating a proper atmosphere

A fellow Blue Moon forum member posted this about the acoustics at the stadium

"What will be better for the atmosphere? One large North Stand or a small, split, low-level South Stand?

Can we put aside who said what, to who and when or who hasn`t said what and could do. Leave the history behind and deal with the here and now.

If the primary objective is atmosphere generation, then locating to the extended North Stand is the only logical conclusion.

New North Stand - Large level 2

* a complete, large end for the first time.
* 3000 (minimum) rail seats for singers.
* More rail seats can be added down both sides.
* General Admission (GA) seating who will naturally join in as the rear and the side standing will envelop the GA.
* The location higher up, closer to the roof, with wrap-around sides, will allow the sound to boom out.
*The inclusion of GA+ seating has no impact on any of the above.
*The small numbers to be displaced from existing seats have the good option to move, with family and friends, to better seats for the same price. They will not be disadvantaged and could be better placed.

South Stand (SS) - Small Level 1

* too small
* too low down
* one of the worst locations to generate a noise
* concrete overhang at the rear underneath SS2 deadens sound.
* split in part on either side of away fans
* displays are effective for a short time pre-match. They contribute nothing to the atmosphere once the match has started.
* In recent years, overall, the atmosphere from SS1 has been usually fair to middling, occasionally good, but can definitely be better.
* 2 levels of the SS are often entirely allocated to away fans in cup games. They usually dominate the noise in cup games.

The new North Stand provides the opportunity for a complete, large end for the first time. It offers the best chance of an improved atmosphere."

The North Stand should be a vocal home with no GA+ sections. The Sky Bar should be the only GA+ section

We could also tell the club to ram their plans for City Hall, imagine 1800 vocal City fans in City Hall singing away before a game, then moving into their vocal home end, the same as what Spurs have done with their South Stand

A BLUE WALL

At last - someone talking sense. Get this person on City Matters, 1894 and the board of directors. Needs driving through.

 

[blueparrot]

Yep, at the moment, the only GA+ seats are at the back of tier 0 (new money) and will be under the overhang of tier 1 and won't affect anything. As they've stated no fans will be moved in tier 1 for the Cross Bar it looks like the original plans for a GA+ section at the front of tier 1 has been kicked into touch. Perhaps there'll be a small block further back in the new seats (just behind the hoardings as of now) but if so they'll be between the 2 exits shown on the sectional below as the lower exit will be needed for access to the bar and they'll be a very small number I think. Presumably, the row for ambulants will be in there somewhere too.

That gives the seats and safe standing from the higher of the exits up and to either side for a vocal home crowd. That roof will work brilliantly for sound.

Edit: if it works as intended, I can see the safe standing coming all the way down to the higher exit in the future.

View attachment 173205

Trying to make sense of that diagram,is there only one exit to the GA concourse,seems a lot of people converging onto the concourse from the same exit, the higher one.So does the lower exit only go to the hospitality ( Cross bar).In which case. It makes no difference really where the GA + rows are as they will have a dedicated exit to their bar.
Or is there a second concourse where the cross bar is located for non GA + fans, as there is CB2 for the non 93:20 fans.

 

[Coatigan]

I've never objected against anything. I've just discussed it.

City do what they want to do.

Not for one second did I ever think safe standing seats would be at the front of NSL2. That was confirmed when I read the PA.

I said keeping the 3000 safe standing seats together at the back of NSL2, and further down NSL2, is better than splitting them up across NSL2.

I'm absolutely guessing here, but City have probably dispersed 1000-2000 safe standing seats down the sides of NSL2 instead of keeping all the safe standing seats together at the back of NSL2.

I'm not so convinced it Would be better myself. As an option in isolation, excluding who wants what.

 

[Centurions]

Trying to make sense of that diagram,is there only one exit to the GA concourse,seems a lot of people converging onto the concourse from the same exit, the higher one.So does the lower exit only go to the hospitality ( Cross bar).In which case. It makes no difference really where the GA + rows are as they will have a dedicated exit to their bar.
Or is there a second concourse where the cross bar is located for non GA + fans, as there is CB2 for the non 93:20 fans.

The Cross Bar is sat in the middle of a GA concourse and is accessed through the same exits.

Edit: the lower ones.

 

[BLUE PEANUT]

I agree, but my point is, there are a few on here who are quite vocal in that they now won't move to the new end as they don't want to be at the back, fair enough.

There are also a fair few who enjoy the banter with the away fans so won't move from the corner of East and the first few blocks of SS Level 1,2,3.

Primarily these are the loudest sections (from where I sit) so without them moving I don't think it's going to be the passionate home end people want. I do genuinely hope i'm wrong. I'm in CB Level 3 and it's like a library for 90% of games unfortunately but I want to sit with my Old Man and he won't sit anywhere else as the view is so good.

Unfortunately, those current fans in the most vocal areas are not being given an incentive to move and this will become a major hurdle in making the north stand a blue wall.
The club should offer a period of reduced pricing (2 seasons?) for North stand level 1, and offer priority access to fans relocating from those areas currently recognised as being most vocal (South stand/next to away fans etc). Make the Cross bar proposal general access for all fans, to encourage them to congregate before the game and build the atmosphere, similar to the bar in south stand. Once the North Stand singing area establishes itself, the more vocal fans will migrate there.
Eventually fans that don't want to sing, stand all game etc will inevitably move to more sedate areas of the ground !

 

[Coatigan]

Trying to make sense of that diagram,is there only one exit to the GA concourse,seems a lot of people converging onto the concourse from the same exit, the higher one.So does the lower exit only go to the hospitality ( Cross bar).In which case. It makes no difference really where the GA + rows are as they will have a dedicated exit to their bar.
Or is there a second concourse where the cross bar is located for non GA + fans, as there is CB2 for the non 93:20 fans.

There is only 1 per 'level' in section, but 7 of them along that level. The bar can also be accessed via the wider concourse on that level, but obviously its own central connection is more direct.

 

[blueparrot]

The Cross Bar is sat in the middle of a GA concourse and is accessed through the same exits.

Edit: the lower ones.

View attachment 173209

That makes more sense,thanks. So as has been suggested doesn’t matter too much if the seats for it have moved from the very front of NS2 further back.

 

[Centurions]

That makes more sense,thanks. So as has been suggested doesn’t matter too much if the seats for it have moved from the very front of NS2 further back.

Correct, although if they do come in to being they would need to be between the higher and lower exits, there's no point in putting the seats higher and we know they're not going lower as no one is being advised they may need to move.