Northern Rail

inbetween said:
People often see the problem as though nationalisation will solve it when it won't. All nationalisation will achieve is the merging of many franchises into one. It doesn't mean it will run better or anything else. There are just as many examples of nationalisation working well as there are it working terribly.

Personally I think the problem with the current franchise model is a lack of competition and also surely total stupidity in negotiating the franchises because when they don't work those companies either shouldn't be running them or they should be punished properly.

Not arguing against nationalisation because done right it would be great but yeah... It has to be done right and historically as far as infrastructure and services when has that happened?
Click to expand...

Perhaps if you understood the complexities of the system a little more you would understand the need for renationalisation (If, any train drivers are on here correct me if Im wrong)

A train driver needs to be trained about signals etc.
A train driver needs to be trained on how to drive the train (understand that not all trains are the same so training a driver on one does not mean he can drive them all)
A train driver needs to be trained on the route on which he works.
Train drivers work on a rota (there are also rules in place about the length of their shift patterns - similar to HGV drivers)

So in order to put on a service you need a

A trained driver , a train that your driver can drive and a route that your driver knows on a date that he/ she is able to work.

Under the current system their is little or no co-ordination between the franchises.In addition franchises poach each others staff (a lot) so they haven't got the available staff to train the drivers or in many cases operate the system.

So if you get a break down you need a new train and a driver that can drive that train and knows the route.

Sounds like a nightmare? it is... one of the routes operated by Southern rail to Peterborough requires 5 driver changes.


Nothing will change whilst the system is so fragmented.
 
DontLookBackInAnger said:
I'm with you I had a meeting in London three weeks ago and it was cheaper to fly via Amsterdam than go direct by train, joined up thinking isn't something we do well in the UK and I'm not defending the government and having worked within a nationalized railway a privatized railway and a private company owning a railway I know which one I would choose with regards moving forward, indeed to be honest I know the later couldn't do it, luckily that's not a model in the UK and I doubt a privatized one could either which leaves you with nationalization. BUT and its a big but putting right 60 years of mismanagement of the railways(and I mean at governmental level as well as within the railways themselves)won't be cheap or easy and if I was a betting man I wouldn't sell my shares in the taxi company just yet.

To give you just a simple idea of the problem the Swiss railways where modernized in the 1930s and by 1938 77% of all there routes where electrified using the same overhead system overhead AC 15 kV, The UK in 2006 was 40% electrified using 4 different systems(used to be 5 when the Woodhead line was open), that's just one example of the kind of problems we face if we want to put right the railways, as I said I think it's much more likely we will just keep muddling away with the right banging on about the success of privatization and the left without the long term support needed to implement meaningful change.
Click to expand...

A group of us flew to Barcelona a couple of years ago for the match, was cheaper from Gatwick so flew from there. It was cheaper to fly Manchester to Gatwick with Virgin than it was to get the train down there, £70 cheaper! Thankfully a friend who works on the railways got us free travel but i couldn't believe the cost of the train fare.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Perhaps if you understood the complexities of the system a little more you would understand the need for renationalisation (If, any train drivers are on here correct me if Im wrong)

A train driver needs to be trained about signals etc.
A train driver needs to be trained on how to drive the train (understand that not all trains are the same so training a driver on one does not mean he can drive them all)
A train driver needs to be trained on the route on which he works.
Train drivers work on a rota (there are also rules in place about the length of their shift patterns - similar to HGV drivers)

So in order to put on a service you need a

A trained driver , a train that your driver can drive and a route that your driver knows on a date that he/ she is able to work.

Under the current system their is little or no co-ordination between the franchises.In addition franchises poach each others staff (a lot) so they haven't got the available staff to train the drivers or in many cases operate the system.

So if you get a break down you need a new train and a driver that can drive that train and knows the route.

Sounds like a nightmare? it is... one of the routes operated by Southern rail to Peterborough requires 5 driver changes.


Nothing will change whilst the system is so fragmented.
Click to expand...

sounds like something the unions would come up with "no lad, we need 5 drivers for this route, 13 train guards and 26 trolley dollies. Don't mess with the boys".
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Perhaps if you understood the complexities of the system a little more you would understand the need for renationalisation (If, any train drivers are on here correct me if Im wrong)

A train driver needs to be trained about signals etc.
A train driver needs to be trained on how to drive the train (understand that not all trains are the same so training a driver on one does not mean he can drive them all)
A train driver needs to be trained on the route on which he works.
Train drivers work on a rota (there are also rules in place about the length of their shift patterns - similar to HGV drivers)

So in order to put on a service you need a

A trained driver , a train that your driver can drive and a route that your driver knows on a date that he/ she is able to work.

Under the current system their is little or no co-ordination between the franchises.In addition franchises poach each others staff (a lot) so they haven't got the available staff to train the drivers or in many cases operate the system.

So if you get a break down you need a new train and a driver that can drive that train and knows the route.

Sounds like a nightmare? it is... one of the routes operated by Southern rail to Peterborough requires 5 driver changes.


Nothing will change whilst the system is so fragmented.
Click to expand...

A train guard also needs 6 months of training.


We have to learn the railway equivalent of the highway code.
Understand the traction were working Including stations, signals, level crossings, junctions in case driver is incapacited during an incident.
Understand safe evacuation procedures.
Ticket types and revenue training.
Put into a roster to work accordingly.

A train can't go if one or the other isn't available on Northern.


The whole industry runs on make do and mend. I work on rolling stock that is over 30 years old and struggling for replacement parts as the manufacturer have closed down (BREL/Metro Cammel).

New trains are maintained by their makers, not the TOC's (Siemens/Alstrom/Bombardier) and seem to fail regularly. Be it air con, shitters or another customer comfort. yet kept in service until their quarterly exam takes place (If there are any available spare trains).

It's fragmented to fuck. Clever accountants are syphoning money out of the system into their companies whilst TOC's use bare minimum budgeting for everything "Customer focused". My TOC cant provide buses for delays unless it's over 2 hours and then post on internal media the jollies the top brass are on winning made up awards, ironically for customer service!

Railway passengers are used as a cash cow and treated like shit. People like me on the front line who love the job are getting more frustrated as were not allowed to help. Passenger frustration is now boiling over to violence. FIVE of my colleagues have been seriously assaulted this week. BTP and TOC's are claiming there's no evidence assaults are going up to keep trains running to the all-powerful PPM.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
To be honest .... theres no joined up thinking....... the Govt are tasked with Carbon Emission targets so they dicker around with all sorts of stupid things (banning woodburners appears to be the latest one) instead of thinking .... lets get cars off the road by setting up a cheap reliable transport system so people can get from A to B easily.

I posted before that prior to the Newcastle match i met some guys in the pub who had hired a taxi (return) from Newcastle to Manchester because it was cheaper than buying train tickets . That is a ridiculous state of affairs
Click to expand...

Really? £59.50 return if you split ticket at York. They must have cheap taxis in Newcastle. Maybe if there were 5 of them.
 
Part of the answer seems to be to recruit and train more drivers. Surely the regulator should insist on a min number for each TOC. IF more pay is required to attract recruits, so be it; thats what any sensible co would do.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Perhaps if you understood the complexities of the system a little more you would understand the need for renationalisation (If, any train drivers are on here correct me if Im wrong)

A train driver needs to be trained about signals etc.
A train driver needs to be trained on how to drive the train (understand that not all trains are the same so training a driver on one does not mean he can drive them all)
A train driver needs to be trained on the route on which he works.
Train drivers work on a rota (there are also rules in place about the length of their shift patterns - similar to HGV drivers)

So in order to put on a service you need a

A trained driver , a train that your driver can drive and a route that your driver knows on a date that he/ she is able to work.

Under the current system their is little or no co-ordination between the franchises.In addition franchises poach each others staff (a lot) so they haven't got the available staff to train the drivers or in many cases operate the system.

So if you get a break down you need a new train and a driver that can drive that train and knows the route.

Sounds like a nightmare? it is... one of the routes operated by Southern rail to Peterborough requires 5 driver changes.


Nothing will change whilst the system is so fragmented.
Click to expand...
My cousin trains train drivers for Northern Rail. Guess what they do once they're fully trained up? They go to Virgin for the better pay. He says it's happening all the time,NR can't keep a hold of them.

NR simply don't have the drivers required, apparently.
 
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