Offside judgement (Laporte v Wolves)

[SWP's back]

It says shoulder and bottom of armpit. Wasn’t there mention of bottom of sleeve?

The commentators refer to it as the T-Shirt or sleeve line as it’s easier to explain as the “bottom of armpit” is only easy to visualise when the arm is straight down. When the arm is raised, people get confused like Dirty Harry earlier. It’s also why both IFAB and PL made graphics for people to see and understand.

 

[SWP's back]

1. It stands to reason that only parts of your body you can score with can render you offside - this is as good as stated in the law.
2. According to the handball rule, you can score a goal with the top of your arm.
3. It follows if you can score a goal with the top of your arm, it can also render you offside.

QED

Yes, one would normally expect that to be easy to understand, and whilst many now do follow that logic, a couple are being somewhat difficult to explain it to.

 

[Barcon]

BTW SWP i will stand corrected if i find an OFFICIAL (IFAB/FIFA) statement or paper that states upper arm is now included in offside judgement, as part of the upper arm's inclusion in the new handball rule.
But you had not helped me at all to find that :)

So i go by the official rules until someone provides a specific statement from an official source.

I have just wasted 20 mins of my life trying to follow this argument. The handball rule is showing you what they consider to be the "arm". The "arm" is the same "arm" that is used in the offside rule.
If when explaining the offside rule they felt the need to show a different diagram to the one used in the handball rule they would have done so.

 

[SWP's back]

But can you hide the fact(while showing it) that it says FOR THE PURPOSES OF DETERMINING HANDBALL OFFENCES?

It does not say for offside offences.
And furthermore in the rules for offside it says arms do NOT count.

Tell me that there is no confusion....
Even referees have stated that as i see:

Answer provided by Referee Jason Wright​

Hi Martin,

EPL VARs aren't including arms in offside rulings...though there's a small 'but' to that.

Look at the handball law. Previously the laws provided no direction on where the 'arm' started, but it was generally considered to be the point of the shoulder - where your shirt seam is. For some reason, IFAB in 2020-21 decided to fix something that wasn't broken, thus breaking it - and there's an image in the laws which shows that the upper arm, down to some undefined arbitrary point, is still legal to play. In the image at https://www.theifab.com/laws/chapter/32/section/92/ it looks like 'handball' starts about...2/3 up the upper arm, but it's really unclear.

So, the same point is used for offside, because that's why arms are excluded from offside - it excludes non-playable parts of the body.

I have a suspicion the Bamform goal that was disallowed in the recent Leeds - Crystal Palace match may have motivated your question. It looks like the VAR has attempted to draw the offside line somewhere at that undefined upper arm point. Problem is - this makes positioning of the line quite arbitrary it seems to be about halfway along the upper arm.

The bigger problem there is that the VAR didn't apply this to the defender rather they've drawn the line to the defender's torso (when people have complained about being an 'armpit' offside, the line was actually drawn to the torso - I presumed, because it was easier than trying to judge where the shoulder was as you can't tell if it's just a shirt ballooning out from the shoulder). Had the VAR applied the law the same way to both attacker and defender then either both would be drawn to the torso, or both drawn to upper arm - either way, I honestly cannot see a justification for that goal being disallowed.

So, if VAR is suddenly deciding to try an apply that handball image to offside, that's where the problem lies. They're still excluding the arm - but it's a question of how much arm to exclude. And in doing so, I really think we're straying further and further from the point of the VAR.

By George you’ve got it!!

 

[Lavinda Past]

It's all nonsense based on millimimetres and tiny fractions of a second.

Give the benefit of doubt to the attacking player in every case subject to such close scrutiny.

 

[Mike45]

IFAB has to clear this up.
If "arm" as defined in the handball rule is applied to the arm in the offside rule.

And furthermore to specifically define WHERE the legal arm begins since if it is applied to offside also then the drawing of the line is arbitrary without a clear definition of where legal arm begins.

 

[dronefromsector7G]

The commentators refer to it as the T-Shirt or sleeve line as it’s easier to explain as the “bottom of armpit” is only easy to visualise when the arm is straight down. When the arm is raised, people get confused like Dirty Harry earlier. It’s also why both IFAB and PL made graphics for people to see and understand.

Also the IFAB and PL green zones are different sizes relevant to the upper arm. The PL one is half way down which is a true sleeve line but the IFAB one looks higher up close to the shoulder.

In conclusion the bent cunts have muddied the waters to help screw us!

 

[I'm With Stupid]

I can't wait for the first player to shoulder the ball in.

 

[feelymcfeel]

IFAB has to clear this up.
If "arm" as defined in the handball rule is applied to the arm in the offside rule.

And furthermore to specifically define WHERE the legal arm begins since if it is applied to offside also then the drawing of the line is arbitrary without a clear definition of where legal arm begins.

Why would it be different?

 

[Gazza]

Then watch more games played at Anfield:

View attachment 11699
View attachment 11700

I've not downloaded the pictures so my statement is still true ;-)
and why would I watch more games played at Anfield?