yankblue said:I know everyone loves a good conspiracy and all, but I don't think there's one here to be honest. Osama is dead. The American government has taken so much flak and criticism for this whole situation, both domestically and abroad, that they're not going to claim he's dead unless they're sure of it. They say they've done DNA tests and dental records to confirm it, and I'm as distrustful of the government as the next guy, but they're not stupid (well I suppose that's debatable). But seriously, the amount of credibility the American government has lost and the sheer amount of criticism they've come under...they're not going to risk losing any more face. Imagine if they were lying about this and it were to be exposed (which it eventually would be)? If Osama wasn't dead, and hears these reports of Americans killing him, I'm going to speculate their would be a video on the internet of him within hours. Obviously parts of this are shady, such as what he was doing in Pakistan (although it's been though he's been there for much of the last decade) but I think he's dead, plain and simple. But hey believe otherwise if you want, I'm not going to try to change your mind.
As for the justice not being served or whatever, let me rant just a little. Obviously a trial would have been ideal, obviously this was not the perfect situation or outcome, but can anyone really have an issue with seeing this man wiped off the face of the Earth? He was a truly evil man, responsible for the death of thousands and suffering throughout the world. I mean this in the most sincere way possible, and I'm truly not trying to offend anyone on here so I apologize if anyone takes offense to this, but I do think that you have to be American to truly appreciate how important finally getting Bin Laden has been to our country. I know that England has been with us since day one on this, has experienced similar terrorist attacks, and that thousands throughout the UK have suffered greatly so I mean no disrespect, really I don't. But spending my first 12 years in pre 9/11 America and 10 since...let me just say words can not describe how much this truly means, if only symbolically. Imagine waking up one morning as a 12 year old without a care in the world and in a few hours later being brought in to an auditorium by crying teachers trying to explain we were under attack, that thousands of innocent civilians were dead and nobody really knew what the hell was going on. Teachers crying, parents freaking out, widespread panic, nobody knew or understood what was going on. Before 9/11 life was easy, there were problems obviously but the world in 2001 was very different then it is today. As I said, before 9/11 the average Americans life was easy...we were an extremely prosperous, rich, and almost unrivaled nation in terms of power, probably the most powerful the modern world has ever seen (again, really not trying to say zOMG AMERICA, get in a pissing contest here, promote American exceptionalism, claim the US was better then anyone else, and obviously we were on a decline even in 2001 now that I look back on it) but it's pretty hard to debate that. Since 2011 we've been bogged down in war after war, economic downturn, have seen our power dwindle and challenged, and faced severe criticism from all corners of the world on pretty much a daily basis. America has been a nation living in fear and we have never truly recovered from 9/11 and who knows if we ever will. The sheer euphoria of what has happened in the past 20 hours...I mean just look at whats been going on. USA chants at the Phillies - yes baseball is shit girls play rounders blah blah blah - game (where Mets and Phillies fans - who hate each other like City and United - were chanting together and embracing like brothers, I know I was there and it's been all over the news), parades throughout Washington and every major city, hell we had a march of a couple thousand students at 1am on my university campus! This may be only a symbolic victory, and trust me everyone knows that, but to many Americans we finally got the guy we have for the past decade held responsible for killing thousands of innocent civilians and bringing and indescribable amount of grief upon not only our country, but the world in general. Maybe it's not "justice" in the most perfect sense, but I think I speak for a lot of Americans when I say justice was well served.
*Again, not meant to go on a pro-america rant or offend anyone, I had a little trouble trying to find the right words here so please forgive me. Also if you disagree, please let me know, I'm open for a little friendly debate and to see others conflicting viewpoints.
Damocles said:yankblue said:I know everyone loves a good conspiracy and all, but I don't think there's one here to be honest. Osama is dead. The American government has taken so much flak and criticism for this whole situation, both domestically and abroad, that they're not going to claim he's dead unless they're sure of it. They say they've done DNA tests and dental records to confirm it, and I'm as distrustful of the government as the next guy, but they're not stupid (well I suppose that's debatable). But seriously, the amount of credibility the American government has lost and the sheer amount of criticism they've come under...they're not going to risk losing any more face. Imagine if they were lying about this and it were to be exposed (which it eventually would be)? If Osama wasn't dead, and hears these reports of Americans killing him, I'm going to speculate their would be a video on the internet of him within hours. Obviously parts of this are shady, such as what he was doing in Pakistan (although it's been though he's been there for much of the last decade) but I think he's dead, plain and simple. But hey believe otherwise if you want, I'm not going to try to change your mind.
As for the justice not being served or whatever, let me rant just a little. Obviously a trial would have been ideal, obviously this was not the perfect situation or outcome, but can anyone really have an issue with seeing this man wiped off the face of the Earth? He was a truly evil man, responsible for the death of thousands and suffering throughout the world. I mean this in the most sincere way possible, and I'm truly not trying to offend anyone on here so I apologize if anyone takes offense to this, but I do think that you have to be American to truly appreciate how important finally getting Bin Laden has been to our country. I know that England has been with us since day one on this, has experienced similar terrorist attacks, and that thousands throughout the UK have suffered greatly so I mean no disrespect, really I don't. But spending my first 12 years in pre 9/11 America and 10 since...let me just say words can not describe how much this truly means, if only symbolically. Imagine waking up one morning as a 12 year old without a care in the world and in a few hours later being brought in to an auditorium by crying teachers trying to explain we were under attack, that thousands of innocent civilians were dead and nobody really knew what the hell was going on. Teachers crying, parents freaking out, widespread panic, nobody knew or understood what was going on. Before 9/11 life was easy, there were problems obviously but the world in 2001 was very different then it is today. As I said, before 9/11 the average Americans life was easy...we were an extremely prosperous, rich, and almost unrivaled nation in terms of power, probably the most powerful the modern world has ever seen (again, really not trying to say zOMG AMERICA, get in a pissing contest here, promote American exceptionalism, claim the US was better then anyone else, and obviously we were on a decline even in 2001 now that I look back on it) but it's pretty hard to debate that. Since 2011 we've been bogged down in war after war, economic downturn, have seen our power dwindle and challenged, and faced severe criticism from all corners of the world on pretty much a daily basis. America has been a nation living in fear and we have never truly recovered from 9/11 and who knows if we ever will. The sheer euphoria of what has happened in the past 20 hours...I mean just look at whats been going on. USA chants at the Phillies - yes baseball is shit girls play rounders blah blah blah - game (where Mets and Phillies fans - who hate each other like City and United - were chanting together and embracing like brothers, I know I was there and it's been all over the news), parades throughout Washington and every major city, hell we had a march of a couple thousand students at 1am on my university campus! This may be only a symbolic victory, and trust me everyone knows that, but to many Americans we finally got the guy we have for the past decade held responsible for killing thousands of innocent civilians and bringing and indescribable amount of grief upon not only our country, but the world in general. Maybe it's not "justice" in the most perfect sense, but I think I speak for a lot of Americans when I say justice was well served.
*Again, not meant to go on a pro-america rant or offend anyone, I had a little trouble trying to find the right words here so please forgive me. Also if you disagree, please let me know, I'm open for a little friendly debate and to see others conflicting viewpoints.
The morality of your whole system of government and ideals that your country was founded on is far more important than people temporarily "needing a win".
I can't believe that the irony of people joyfully celebrating the murder of a murderer who joyfully celebrated murdering people, is lost on so many people at present.
yankblue said:I know everyone loves a good conspiracy and all, but I don't think there's one here to be honest. Osama is dead. The American government has taken so much flak and criticism for this whole situation, both domestically and abroad, that they're not going to claim he's dead unless they're sure of it. They say they've done DNA tests and dental records to confirm it, and I'm as distrustful of the government as the next guy, but they're not stupid (well I suppose that's debatable). But seriously, the amount of credibility the American government has lost and the sheer amount of criticism they've come under...they're not going to risk losing any more face. Imagine if they were lying about this and it were to be exposed (which it eventually would be)? If Osama wasn't dead, and hears these reports of Americans killing him, I'm going to speculate their would be a video on the internet of him within hours. Obviously parts of this are shady, such as what he was doing in Pakistan (although it's been though he's been there for much of the last decade) but I think he's dead, plain and simple. But hey believe otherwise if you want, I'm not going to try to change your mind.
As for the justice not being served or whatever, let me rant just a little. Obviously a trial would have been ideal, obviously this was not the perfect situation or outcome, but can anyone really have an issue with seeing this man wiped off the face of the Earth? He was a truly evil man, responsible for the death of thousands and suffering throughout the world. I mean this in the most sincere way possible, and I'm truly not trying to offend anyone on here so I apologize if anyone takes offense to this, but I do think that you have to be American to truly appreciate how important finally getting Bin Laden has been to our country. I know that England has been with us since day one on this, has experienced similar terrorist attacks, and that thousands throughout the UK have suffered greatly so I mean no disrespect, really I don't. But spending my first 12 years in pre 9/11 America and 10 since...let me just say words can not describe how much this truly means, if only symbolically. Imagine waking up one morning as a 12 year old without a care in the world and in a few hours later being brought in to an auditorium by crying teachers trying to explain we were under attack, that thousands of innocent civilians were dead and nobody really knew what the hell was going on. Teachers crying, parents freaking out, widespread panic, nobody knew or understood what was going on. Before 9/11 life was easy, there were problems obviously but the world in 2001 was very different then it is today. As I said, before 9/11 the average Americans life was easy...we were an extremely prosperous, rich, and almost unrivaled nation in terms of power, probably the most powerful the modern world has ever seen (again, really not trying to say zOMG AMERICA, get in a pissing contest here, promote American exceptionalism, claim the US was better then anyone else, and obviously we were on a decline even in 2001 now that I look back on it) but it's pretty hard to debate that. Since 2011 we've been bogged down in war after war, economic downturn, have seen our power dwindle and challenged, and faced severe criticism from all corners of the world on pretty much a daily basis. America has been a nation living in fear and we have never truly recovered from 9/11 and who knows if we ever will. The sheer euphoria of what has happened in the past 20 hours...I mean just look at whats been going on. USA chants at the Phillies - yes baseball is shit girls play rounders blah blah blah - game (where Mets and Phillies fans - who hate each other like City and United - were chanting together and embracing like brothers, I know I was there and it's been all over the news), parades throughout Washington and every major city, hell we had a march of a couple thousand students at 1am on my university campus! This may be only a symbolic victory, and trust me everyone knows that, but to many Americans we finally got the guy we have for the past decade held responsible for killing thousands of innocent civilians and bringing and indescribable amount of grief upon not only our country, but the world in general. Maybe it's not "justice" in the most perfect sense, but I think I speak for a lot of Americans when I say justice was well served.
*Again, not meant to go on a pro-america rant or offend anyone, I had a little trouble trying to find the right words here so please forgive me. Also if you disagree, please let me know, I'm open for a little friendly debate and to see others conflicting viewpoints.
yankblue said:No, it is extremely ironic and I agree with you. It may be lost in the media, but even last night watching Obama's speech and throughout the day today I've had that conversation with a few people, so it's not lost on everyone. The celebrating is a bit excessive, sure, and judge me if you like but I can't say I'm sad that he's dead. Some people do more harm then good and I won't shed a tear when they go. The Osama's, Hitler's, Stalin's, of the world - and I don't think that Osama is on nearly the same level as the other two I'm just using them for an example - while maybe joyfully celebrating their deaths is a bit much, the world is a better place without them.
As for the morality of our government and ideals our country was founded on being far more important than people temporarily needing a win, I agree. Could you just clarify how you think these things are being compromised by the death of Osama? Or in general? I've only skimmed through the last couple pages and I'm a bit exhausted at the moment (finals week), so my apologies if I've missed something.
"The 'V' signs being displayed". Unfortunate turn of phrase, or lost in translation, I wonder. Disgusting scenes.Damocles said:
Yeah! a decade of deaths of innocent people and countless billions spent cultivating even more hatred, fuck yeah! Amen to that brother!Balti said:yankblue said:no you're completely right. I didn't mean to suggest it was, apologies if i did...suppose my patriotism levels are running a bit high today
fair enough
I call that justice and revenge
Double whammy!
Well done US special forces
ElanJo said:Americans singing "We are the Champions" outside the White House. pmsl