Our Badge

[SebastianBlue]

It’s interesting how society deals with these types of issues. The slave trade, the Empire etc are all a stain on our past. Removing tge ship from the Manchester Coat of Arms won’t change anything! Instead history needs to be placed into context and our relationship with it needs to evolve. Theres no point in executing a cover up - the UK needs to come to terms with its past and accept responsibility for our ancestor’s actions. The statues of various despots who profited from the slave trade should not be in prominent places like they were in Bristol but they should be preserved in museums for people to learn from. The Germans could have bulldozed Dacau and pretended it was never there - but far better to preserve it and let us understand the horrors that took place there.

Absolutely agree.

I would likely be classed as “woke” by many on here, as I fervently believe we still haven’t fully come to terms with the vast darkness of our history and the very real consequences of it still playing out around the world today (see what is happening in Sudan and Israel/Palestine right now for but two examples). Nor have we done much in the way of atoning for the sins of our fathers. That doesn’t mean condemning those alive today for what their ancestors did, but it does mean earnestly studying the harm our country has done over the centuries, especially in the name of empire, acknowledging that our relative wealth and political dominance today is largely due to heinous actions and insidious exploitation, and coming to terms with the exploitation and subjugation still existing today (evolved from the historical policies and actions of those that came before us), which underpin our socioeconomic and political structures, and our very way of life.

But even I think removing the ship from our, United’s, or any else crest/logo is wholly misguided. It serves to achieve none of the goals I outline above. If anything, as you allude to above, it only serves to further obfuscate our past. And beyond that, a sailing ship was used by a great many people in our culture and elsewhere for things completely unrelated to slavery, colonialism, and war. If we scrubbed all symbols that had some connection with those detestable actions we would scarcely have much left to use for any purpose.

Whilst I appreciate this blue’s work to highlight the role slavery and colonialism played in Manchester’s history (something we still need to explore more), removing the ship on the badge is not going to change anything. In fact, I think leaving it does more good.

 

[nmc]

Never liked the Eagle - looked a bit Barclays Bank but i wonder if it caught the eye of our owners - they love an Eagle.

 

[Inter Me Nan]

Absolutely agree.

I would likely be classed as “woke” by many on here, as I fervently believe we still haven’t fully come to terms with the vast darkness of our history and the very real consequences of it still playing out around the world today (see what is happening in Sudan and Israel/Palestine right now for but two examples). Nor have we done much in the way of atoning for the sins of our fathers. That doesn’t mean condemning those alive today for what their ancestors did, but it does mean earnestly studying the harm our country has done over the centuries, especially in the name of empire, acknowledging that our relative wealth and political dominance today is largely due to heinous actions and insidious exploitation, and coming to terms with the exploitation and subjugation still existing today (evolved from the historical policies and actions of those that came before us), which underpin our socioeconomic and political structures, and our very way of life.

But even I think removing the ship from our, United’s, or any else crest/logo is wholly misguided. It serves to achieve none of the goals I outline above. If anything, as you allude to above, it only serves to further obfuscate our past. And beyond that, a sailing ship was used by a great many people in our culture and elsewhere for things completely unrelated to slavery, colonialism, and war.

Good post mate.

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Posted in respect of this srticle in the media thread but may as well bang it in here too.

The Lincoln statue in Manchester waves..

the inscription on the plinth. It is dedicated to: "the support that the working people of Manchester gave in their fight for the abolition of slavery during the American Civil War.......By supporting the union under President Lincoln at a time when there was an economic blockade of the southern states the Lancashire cotton workers were denied access to raw cotton which caused considerable unemployment throughout the cotton industry."

 

[Manx Blue]

Okay. The Ship may/does relate to the slave trade.

Not great but there we have it.

If we're not going to acknowledge and learn from the deplorable actions of all our forefathers, what do we do?

It's like saying the Holocaust happened, but lets shut down Auschwitz so we're not remembering the actions mentioned.

The Empire and slave trade may well be deplorable, but would we have the diverse exciting society we have now if not?

Apologies for the ramble

 

[NeilMcnabTwoFooted]

what do you expect from that communist anti british rag known as the guardian, socialist worker party comic journalist wrings hands over alleged offence shock horror, as predictable as ever these clowns

 

[bugsyblue]

It is a fucking boat.

I for one am proud as fuck of the Manchester Ship Canal and the extraordinary feat of engineering that it represents. Do I deserve my heritage being taken away from me by some pontificating southern nonce?

At some point we have got to put a stop to this shite from two hundred years ago that can’t be changed and get on with sorting today’s urgent problems out.

The journalist is a city lad from Salford

 

[Goodlove]

Im not a fan of deleting history and that’s what pulling statues down etc is effectively doing. Rather, our history should be put into context so we and others can learn from it.

 

[levets]

An interesting, well-balanced piece in the Guardian today, written by a blue, discussing the origins of the ship on our badge, and it's links to slavary in the cotton fields of America.

Abandon ship: does this symbol of slavery shame Manchester and its football clubs?

A three-masted vessel adorns the city’s buildings and both teams’ crests. But is it an emblem of a crime against humanity?

www.theguardian.com

The statement below is a Load of nonsense, whilst the crux of it is trying to create a debate for debates sake …
——————-
unfortunate whiff of nazism about it

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Absolutely agree.

I would likely be classed as “woke” by many on here, as I fervently believe we still haven’t fully come to terms with the vast darkness of our history and the very real consequences of it still playing out around the world today (see what is happening in Sudan and Israel/Palestine right now for but two examples). Nor have we done much in the way of atoning for the sins of our fathers. That doesn’t mean condemning those alive today for what their ancestors did, but it does mean earnestly studying the harm our country has done over the centuries, especially in the name of empire, acknowledging that our relative wealth and political dominance today is largely due to heinous actions and insidious exploitation, and coming to terms with the exploitation and subjugation still existing today (evolved from the historical policies and actions of those that came before us), which underpin our socioeconomic and political structures, and our very way of life.

But even I think removing the ship from our, United’s, or any else crest/logo is wholly misguided. It serves to achieve none of the goals I outline above. If anything, as you allude to above, it only serves to further obfuscate our past. And beyond that, a sailing ship was used by a great many people in our culture and elsewhere for things completely unrelated to slavery, colonialism, and war.

History shows that the weak got destroyed, empire building and alliances on whatever scale were the only way to prevent this until very recently. What Britain did was understandable for that period of time, so no amount of earnestly studying the past will fix that because you will be learning about things whilst holding modern values. It's all terrible of course, but there's absolutely no way in knowing if our terror would be worse than the alternative because without the British there's sure as something else in its place for that period of time.