johnmc said:
The Makalele argument is totally flawed - for one that was a different era. You cannot compare the league now to 6-8 years ago when Makalele was in his pomp.
Yes I can because the Premier League is still a high tempo attacking league where its naive not to have a good defensive setup (and I don't mean just the back four, its clear by our defensive performances already this season that isn't enough).
And added to this if you are saying De Jong is in Makalele league then I'm sorry I think you are incorrect.
No one is as good as Makelele in this role and for that very reason its called the Makelele position. But De Jong is the best thing in this role in the league since then.
Can you tell me the defensive midfielders for Bayern, United, Chelsea, Barca, Real, Inter and AC please.
Did you not see Luis Gustavo for Bayern the other day breaking up play? He is just like De Jong, a defensive midfielder who was actually converted to that role from being a defender.
United have Carrick who is not as good at his defensive duties as De Jong but United have been lucky enough to have two first class CBs in Vidic and Ferdinand to compensate for that - but still let in more goals than us last season. And United have had more shots against them than
any other team in the league this season according to OptaStats. There is concern amongst their fans, a lot of whom seem to think they need a better holding midfielder.
AC Milan have van Bommel, an inferior version of De Jong, as well as Gattuso.
Real Madrid have Lass Diarra and also use Pepe (a defender) in the role at times to break up play.
Barcelona have Busquets but obviously do not really need a strictly holding midfielder for most games as they are the best possession team club football has ever seen. It also helps when they and Real play teams like Vallecano who charge like idiots at them and get shown up. If we were in La Liga we'd need less protection for our backline (except against teams like Valencia) but as the Fulham game showed, we do need it.
If De Jong isnt one dimensional then he need to show it a bit more - you cite Yaya and how he hasnt made as many runs at the minute but that proves my point - he isnt one dimensional and has done more than one job. Why hasnt De Jong been asked to do this if he has that in his locker?
Simple - because he is the very best around at what he is doing now. We had the joint strongest defensive setup in the league last season and yet we didn't have the best back four, much of that is down to De Jong (and also Barry) protecting them so well. There was a game last season, I think the game where De Jong scored, when he started becoming ambitious and pushing forward - and looked fine. But then suddenly there seemed to be gaps where he'd normally be that left us looking frail at the back, because he'd for the first time I can remember lost his tactical discipline and left us exposed in the area he marshals so well.
You might as well ask "Why doesn't Aguero go and defend?", it'd negate his strongest quality to have him change roles - he is the best at breaking up play and giving it to someone like Silva or Nasri to do what they do. De Jong was trained in "total football" and is very comfortable on the ball, if he was told to go forward more he'd probably do a fair job but he isn't for the reason I just mentioned - it'd negate his best quality of protecting the backline, just like Aguero going back to defend would negate his best quality and leave an empty space up front.
Our complete lack of defensive discipline?? For starters De Jong is a midfielder therefore if we have a lack of defenisve discipline we need to look at the defence first. Are you saying that Kompany was made to look good last season by De Jong and his dip in form is down to De Jong playing?
I am not sure but we've played the exact same back four this season besides Clichy for Kolarov (and Clichy is better) and at times have been flapping like we did under Hughes, so perhaps our back four are not as good as we thought and the protection they got last season made them seem better than they are.
It was the same last season when De Jong was injured or rested (ie. vs. Liverpool when we got battered), our steely defensive setup suddenly looked nervous and uncomfortable. To me it is very clear that Kompany and Lescott feel a lot more comfortable with a good anchorman in front of them. De Jong also rarely makes mistakes when he has the ball unlike Barry, who cost us a goal against Napoli and should have cost us a goal against Bayern if they hadn't missed that sitter from a few yards out. I can't remember De Jong ever losing the ball in a situation that led to a goal (or a near goal), especially in such important matches.
No one was citing a lack of defensive discipline prior to the Fulham game.
Actually they did - the Bolton game. We should have thrashed them but in the end it finished 3-2 with Bolton having two or three chances and scoring two goals.
Fulham was the first midfield really up for it in the league and it showed in the second half, they even had a 19-year-old green boy called Kasami who was too good for us in that half.
De Jong might not be essential when we play a naive team like Norwich or Swansea, or a team that just plans to park the bus like Everton did, but it is clear that the PL has many fiesty midfields who will overrun us just like Fulham did in the second half, like Napoli did at times in the second half, and like Bayern did with ridiculous ease the other day. It has been jaw-dropping how much free space there has been in the area De Jong and Barry would normally have had a tight leash on things last season. Look at Gomez's first goal and the space Ribery had to get the shot in that Hart parried and Gomez poached - Ribery wasn't pressured in any way because Yaya was gasping somewhere and Barry was nowhere to be found. Neither has that dogged determination to chase, intimidate, and harry players like De Jong does.
