Our Centre Mids

[LoveCity]

Who will be next on the Geedorah chopping block - Silva, De Jong... the only logical choice is Kompany but you'll find good odds on Joe Hart.

If we can get Hargreaves to stay fit, imagine what a Hargreaves/De Jong/Milner trio could have done against Bayern. I think the match could have finished 0-0 with an Arsenal style shut-out - Mancini's comments after the game suggest he knows he was naive to go there with the "attack, attack, attack!" policy and won't do it again. Save that for teams like Swansea and Norwich.

 

[Happy Feet]

I thought we were 2nd on goal difference. Obviously time to panic.

 

[King Geedorah]

The boy's just come back from a month out, for 25 minutes, what did you expect?

A tackle? Better positioning when we have possession than in between the two centre backs?

If he wasn't fit enough to make a tackle then he shouldn't have come on. Simple as.

 

[Squatter]

Yaya is best utilised as an AM. but he's not better there than Silva or Nasri. Forget all this "DM at Barca" bollocks, we're a lot more prone to losing the ball than those midgets. Plenty of room in the squad for him though as he brings something completely different.

 

[persvenality cult]

On Tuesday:

we faced what is in my opinion, the second best central midfield in club football. three against two

there was no help from the forwards, they didn't close down the flanks, hardly defended from the front at all. least not as a unit. this meant central players being pulled out wide in addition to their manning the ramparts against with Schwieny and co.

everyone was giving the ball away.

and the defense were sketchy, dropping deep.

result: the gap between the our own forwards and defenders was so big that the two incumbents were covering half a pitch.

The reincarnations of Colin Bell and 24 year old Patrick Vieira would be somewhat challenged in these circumstances

I do however think it's time for Barry to stop giving the ball away at the worst possible time, under no pressure, in the biggest games routine. Concentrate lad, or you'll never make it in the CL. Now or never.

And Yaya is either carrying a knock, or he would be by the time I'd finished with him.

One thing about Nigel is that he does have a dominant personality/image, which he uses to do a lot of co-ordination off the ball, as well as to intimidate opponents. Anyway I am pretty sure one or both midfielders have knocks, and Milner is probably going to have to be a working winger as long as Nasri is getting subbed...so his return is simply essential.

 

[johnmc]

De Jong made no difference at all - fair enough the game was lost and tough to come in to a game like that but they seemed to gain even more control after he came on

You are trying so hard to find non-arguments to down de jong on almost every occasion. Nigel had a four week absence, hence no matchfitness. Did you really expect him to turn the tide? At least there were no more goals conceded.
It's clear that you have something against the lad because footballwise you're not on the same level as most. Eat the following with a spoon and grow a brain:

Barry is the weakest link of the team. He lacks speed, defensive awareness, ferocity, balls, winners mentality and his 'excellent passing' has been greatly exaggerated otherwise he'd be more influential in attack sense. The few games he played well can't compensate for the average games. He is not worldclass, Nigel de Jong is.

Even people like you admit that De Jong is (only) needed against teams like Chelsea, United, Arsenal, etc. But in the proces fail to understand that the so called minnows don't surrender that easily and have sufficient bite to them to cause an upset. Fulham is the latest example. Also the game after Swansea City conceded twice, only winning with one goal more. If you look at it dispassionately, de Jong is the logical choice. So toss your hate away and get a taste of reality.

So because I have an opinion on someone that differs to yours then I dont have a football brain? Obviously Mancini thought he would make a difference otherwise he wouldnt have made the substitution and wouldnt have explained it afterwards - I concede that Mancini's football brain is better than mine but you obviously refuse to given your comments.

I wouldnt call De Jong world class but I wouldnt call Barry world class either - but because you say one is poor and one is world class then that must be correct? And in respect of reality, yes we threw away a two goal lead against fulham without De Jong but we also couldnt score against Swansea with him on the pitch. So your arguments count for nothing really - you have absolutely no idea what scores would or would not have been if De Jong would have played, if Barry wouldnt have played etc etc

We surrendered a lead against Fulham away, United surrended a lead against Stoke away - this will happen througout the season with De Jong on the pitch and off the pitch no doubt as well. Its a long season.

No agenda against De Jong, just my opinion on what he does and doesnt bring to the team are different - but you think you are right and that anyone who disagrees knows nothing.

 

[matt_matt]

I remember a year or two on the guardian football podcast they discussed the "Lee Carsley" effect, where people would say Carsley was underrated so many times that they went too far the other way, and started overrating him. Barry is similar in that respect. What he does for the team has been underrated, but let's not kid ourselves - he's a very good central midfielder, not a great one. Should be starting a lot of our Prem games, especially against lesser teams, I think, but CL is possibly a step too high for him.

 

[King Geedorah]

I remember a year or two on the guardian football podcast they discussed the "Lee Carsley" effect, where people would say Carsley was underrated so many times that they went too far the other way, and started overrating him. Barry is similar in that respect. What he does for the team has been underrated, but let's not kid ourselves - he's a very good central midfielder, not a great one. Should be starting a lot of our Prem games, especially against lesser teams, I think, but CL is possibly a step too high for him.

And there's a post-Lee Carsley effect too, where by people assume over rated players are being rated because of the Lee Carsley effect and hence start to under rate the player once again. And there's a post-post-Lee Carsley effect too, etc etc.

People need to just drop how rated players are and just look at the performances. Whether someone is over rated or under rated doesn't matter providing they are consistently winning us points.

 

[Enigmus]

So because I have an opinion on someone that differs to yours then I dont have a football brain?

An opinion needs to have substance and validation. What you spout is simply drivel from a logical point of view and by 'the law of the averages'.

Obviously Mancini thought he would make a difference otherwise he wouldnt ave made the substitution and wouldnt have explained it afterwards

Yes there was a difference, no goals were conceded. But that's not even an argument to bring up. Mancini knows what kind of impact de Jong has, he has proved this on many occasions. The fact that de Jong wasn't himself and thus not having the same impact is easily dismissed due to the fact of his matchfitness. We all saw a failing side that had trouble conencting and keeping the ball. De Jong can only do so much in these circumstances. To even bring the point up of herrassing de Jong because 'he didn't do anything' is of someone who's almost braindead to be honest.

I concede that Mancini's football brain is better than mine but you obviously refuse to given your comments.

Wow, the first sensible thing you've said so far.

I wouldnt call De Jong world class but I wouldnt call Barry world class either -

In my book you're worldclass when you're one of the best on your position. De Jongs merits are found in his qualities as a defensive midfielder, his commitment and his consistency. Barry doesn't have the quality, doesn't seem overly committed (but does a job nevertheless) and is not consistent. So it's easy to put a label on Barry with average on it.

but because you say one is poor and one is world class then that must be correct?

Yes, because I've played the game, coached a team, watch games outside of the EPL and basically know my footy. That means I know what is important and how it is executed. I also use sound facts to underline why. In contrast to pointing out how poor de jong was 2 years ago (for instance)

And in respect of reality, yes we threw away a two goal lead against fulham without De Jong but we also couldnt score against Swansea with him on the pitch.

Put this in perspective: First City did score with de Jong still on the field. Second, How can you blame a DM for the lack of goals?

So your arguments count for nothing really - you have absolutely no idea what scores would or would not have been if De Jong would have played, if Barry wouldnt have played etc etc

Ofcourse one can't predict for sure what changes would be made with different players, but it is however not farfetched to take into account certain factors. To make it simple, what does de Jong bring on the table and what does Barry bring. In which case it's almost a certainty that the back four wouldn't have been as much exposed if de Jong was present. This for the simple fact that de Jong stays behind and makes it a lot harder for opposition to operate in the centre near the goal area. Also the free kick that lead to the goal could have been prevented.

We surrendered a lead against Fulham away, United surrended a lead against Stoke away - this will happen througout the season with De Jong on the pitch and off the pitch no doubt as well. Its a long season.

Conceding is part of the game, but you always have to look at the manner how this was done.

No agenda against De Jong, just my opinion on what he does and doesnt bring to the team are different - but you think you are right and that anyone who disagrees knows nothing.

I still find that hard to believe. It's for all to see, plain and simple what de Jong does, what to expect from him, where his qualities lay and how much influence he has in contrast to Barry. It's almost you saying 1+1=3 It just doesn't make sense. It's not just my view on the matter. The opinions are stacked against you. You have been feeding me nothing that could change my mind while I've been explaining in some detail what the differences are. Any sane person could see the logic in it, so if it's still not plausible enough then there could be dark feelings involved.

-- Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:56 pm --

The boy's just come back from a month out, for 25 minutes, what did you expect?

A tackle? Better positioning when we have possession than in between the two centre backs?

If he wasn't fit enough to make a tackle then he shouldn't have come on. Simple as.

Yes you have a simple brain. There is a difference between being fit to play and being matchfit. Clearly de Jong wasn't matchfit and didn't put in the same shift we're used from him. We also shouldn't take his play for granted, it does take a big toll and I'm sure he'll regain his matchfitness soon enough. Blackburn awaits.

 

[johnmc]

Yes, because I've played the game, coached a team, watch games outside of the EPL and basically know my footy. That means I know what is important and how it is executed. I also use sound facts to underline why. In contrast to pointing out how poor de jong was 2 years ago (for instance)

Ha ha you know best because you have played the game and coached a team??? Are you for real? So tell me about these teams you played and coached for please. Swept all before them did they? You are now a Top League/Internation coach are you seeing as you know so much.

Basically you know your opinion and thats all. Get off your high horse. In your opinion Barry is poor and De Jong is world class - thats fine. My opinion differs. Obviously I think I'm right and you think you are right - because you played the game apparently that means your opinion is right. Did i not play the game??

The sound judgement you refer to is again your opinion.

Being world class because you are supposedly one of the best in your position is not such a great accolade when there arent many players that play in that position in top class teams. Lets go through the top teams in europe if you want and see how many players are similar and one dimesional as De Jong.

Dont understand the 2 years ago comment

Finally, as you have to revert to put downs and smart ass comments in order to try and prove your point reflects what type of person you are - if you want to debate something then fine - try and do it with sound argument rather than trying to be the big I am