P & O

[paulchapo]

I don’t condone P&O’s tactics here but aren’t some of P&O’s ships registered in Cyprus, which is part of the EU the last time I looked so I’m not sure if being part of it would have prevented it. I’ll stick my neck out and say that these reported low salaries are commonplace in an international market where employers can bypass national rules. We could all refuse to use companies that pay below UK minimum wage of course, but the other side of the coin is that it provides work, maybe well paid by their country’s standards, for people in poorer parts of the world. In a way, demanding everyone be paid UK minimum wage is the same as saying “Buy British”.

P&O Ferries are indeed registered in Limassol
Cyprus. Doing so allowed them to dodge a whole lot of financial and legal obligations. It's called the flag of convenience. Such a practice isn't new.indeed it has existed for a good 40 years that I'm aware off. It allowed a whole raft of British owned shipowners to do what P&O are doing now, make staff redundant and/or sack them and replace them with cheap foreign labour. Deep sea it was mainly Filipinos.There used to be a ruling that ships plying their trade in British waters couldn't use this practice but almost without noticing it has happened. I'm still not sure what P&O have done with the mass sackings and replacing the crew with cheap labour is legal, but legality doesn't seem to be something the present government seem that concerned about, particularly if a quick buck is coming their way.

What we should be looking at on a larger human scale is improving the lives of people in those poorer countries, so they can work and live local to their families and not have to be away from them for months and worked long hours with no legal rights. Also just because Britain is a more affluent country shouldn't the poor workers living here rights be respected? Should they feel guilty working for what the country they are in deems the minimum to live on because some poor sod in another country is worse off and say, "Here take my job, it plunges me into despair and possibly financial ruin but your need is greater than mine?"

People in this country need to be very careful if they turn a blind eye to this as in my opinion it's testing the waters, no pun intended. If P&O weren't legally allowed to do this but it slides through then other companies will follow suit. Buy some cheap accommodation, fly in foreign workers paid four or five times less than your regular workforce, avoid paying into their pension fund, national insurance etcetera and the jobs a good un. Loadsamoney for yourself and your shareholders.

 

[Blue Mist]

It’s not rocket science.
If you are employed on a ship to sail back and forth from Dover to Calais or anywhere in U.K. or EU waters you should be protected by the workers rights laws in those jurisdictions.

Correct. If we accept that they are owned by a dubai company and therefore exempt from the minimum wage, why can't Amazon say they same for their warehouses ?
I fully accept that a ship sailing the 7 seas can employ anyone it wants and pay them as little as they want to. Dover Calais twice daily is not on the seven seas.

 

[paulchapo]

It very much is, but through the use of outsourcing companies and reflagged ships the bastards have managed to circumvent those laws.

Practically this option may be the best one for the foreign nationals, compared to insecure merchant navy jobs or servants. Especially with the foreign currency exchange bonus but that isn't good enough.

A very good point, and something that would make a compellingly case if the P&O ever found themselves in court for civil claims or corporate manslaughter and other health and safety offences.

You can't escape liability for negligence when subcontracting to substandard disreputable companies. When agencies pay staff that much how is it possible to conclude that they are anything other than that?

Just £1.81 per hour for agency crew replacing P&O Ferries workers

Agency crew hired to replace P&O Ferries workers are being paid just £1.81 per hour, according to information received by the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT).

www.nautilusint.org

It's reprehensible what they've done and whatever loophole or if any government or law deems it okay, every normal sane person knows it's a cunts trick. They also know that employing cheap foreign labour on a pittance is reprehensible. Dressing it up by saying, "Ahhh but these poor people were living in poverty in their country" doesn't make exploiting that fact to make more money for your company any less disgusting.

As for corporate manslaughter, they have previous

P&O EUROPEAN FERRIES ACQUITTED OF MANSLAUGHTER​

Journal of Commerce Staff | Oct 21, 1990 8:00PM EDT
Print
P&O European Ferries (Dover) Ltd. and seven employees were cleared of manslaughter charges in a British court Friday after the judge directed the jury to bring in a not guilty verdict.

The company and the seven defendants were being tried over the Herald of Free Enterprise tragedy three years ago in which nearly 200 people died when the cross-Channel ferry between Belgium and England capsized just outside the Belgian port of Zeebrugge.The charges alleged that there was an "obvious" risk to the ferry when the roll-on, roll-off car ferry left port with the bow doors still open. However, the judge, Sir Michael Turner, decided that "it was not obvious to any of those people until it happened."

The judge then ruled that the jury could not convict "on the basis of evidence already called."

 

[paulchapo]

I doubt you would come all the way from Colombia spending 2 months wages on a plane ticket, work for very slightly more than you get in Colombia for a day or two then walk out.

There are obviously a lot of disingenuous claims being made as it doesn't add up.

The agency's usually pay their travel. Plus onboard are a mixture of foreign crews, Colombians being just one.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I think it is rocket science or quite complicated at least. You would need to consider who can and can't work in the different waters, what minimum wages they are entitled to, how it affects staff on other ships that traverse international waters, where the ships are registered, whether it is right to stop a worker being employed by a 3rd party agency at a rate they can accept, I mean I work for myself in the UK and could charge myself out at 1p an hour if I wanted to and was feeling very generous, but that takes the opportunity away from someone who needs proper pay. It should be simple really, the staff should be employed out of a base from one of the ports they call at, but employers always seem to find a way round it.

It is not complicated.
The law should be if you run a ferry company in U.K. waters going back and forth to an EU country then you comply with U.K. or EU workers rights.
Anything else is dissembling.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Let’s not forget until recently U.K. govt used this despicable trick on the Ghurkas for centuries. Paying them less than army rates because they didn’t need that much.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

It is not complicated.
The law should be if you run a ferry company in U.K. waters going back and forth to an EU country then you comply with U.K. or EU workers rights.
Anything else is dissembling.

UK rights, or EU rights, or a combination of both? I clearly pointed out that I am in agreement with you that personnel should be employed from a place within a country serviced by sailing routes to avoid confusion as to which 'rights' they should be entitled to, but I just don't think it is simple. Running a business with no staff and buying in all your labour is not illegal as far as I am aware, P&O have simply changed their structure - in a shithouse and unethical way of course and they may have broken UK law in the way they did it - but the employee rights now lie with the employee agencies and from where they operate from.

 

[west didsblue]

P&O Ferries are indeed registered in Limassol
Cyprus. Doing so allowed them to dodge a whole lot of financial and legal obligations. It's called the flag of convenience. Such a practice isn't new.indeed it has existed for a good 40 years that I'm aware off. It allowed a whole raft of British owned shipowners to do what P&O are doing now, make staff redundant and/or sack them and replace them with cheap foreign labour. Deep sea it was mainly Filipinos.There used to be a ruling that ships plying their trade in British waters couldn't use this practice but almost without noticing it has happened. I'm still not sure what P&O have done with the mass sackings and replacing the crew with cheap labour is legal, but legality doesn't seem to be something the present government seem that concerned about, particularly if a quick buck is coming their way.

What we should be looking at on a larger human scale is improving the lives of people in those poorer countries, so they can work and live local to their families and not have to be away from them for months and worked long hours with no legal rights. Also just because Britain is a more affluent country shouldn't the poor workers living here rights be respected? Should they feel guilty working for what the country they are in deems the minimum to live on because some poor sod in another country is worse off and say, "Here take my job, it plunges me into despair and possibly financial ruin but your need is greater than mine?"

People in this country need to be very careful if they turn a blind eye to this as in my opinion it's testing the waters, no pun intended. If P&O weren't legally allowed to do this but it slides through then other companies will follow suit. Buy some cheap accommodation, fly in foreign workers paid four or five times less than your regular workforce, avoid paying into their pension fund, national insurance etcetera and the jobs a good un. Loadsamoney for yourself and your shareholders.

P&O Ferries are actually registered in the UK with headquarters in Dover, as are a multitude of other subsidiary companies. Their corporate structure looks hugely complex but from what I can gather there is a subsidiary called P&O Maritime registered in Cyprus under which the vessels have been reflagged. The sacked employees were employed by a Jersey subsidiary to get them round UK employment laws. Interestingly the often repeated £100m annual loss was the holding company's loss after tax in 2020 only, covering the huge downturn due to the pandemic. P&O Ferries Ltd actually made a £60m profit in 2020. It seems they've plucked one figure from multiple balance sheets, taken it out of context, and used it to justify this whole thing.

 

[paulchapo]

P&O Ferries are actually registered in the UK with headquarters in Dover, as are a multitude of other subsidiary companies. Their corporate structure looks hugely complex but from what I can gather there is a subsidiary called P&O Maritime registered in Cyprus under which the vessels have been reflagged. The sacked employees were employed by a Jersey subsidiary to get them round UK employment laws. Interestingly the often repeated £100m annual loss was the holding company's loss after tax in 2020 only, covering the huge downturn due to the pandemic. P&O Ferries Ltd actually made a £60m profit in 2020. It seems they've plucked one figure from multiple balance sheets, taken it out of context, and used it to justify this whole thing.

I have a long and chequered history with them. In 1988 I was sacked by them in the Dover seaman's strike after refusing to sign new inferior contracts and I was on strike for 16 months. I was on the scrapheap.as due to a technicality on missing a signing date on the British shipping federation I lost my federated status. This meant every other seagoing job I applied for ( Not that there were many due to the flag of convenience) I was told they were taking federated seafarers first. I asked the local union for help and got nowhere. Eventually I wrote a four page letter to the head of the union, Sam McLuskie, denouncing the way they'd abandoned me after staying loyal to them on the strike and threatening to go to the press. Within 72 hours of their receipt of that letter I had a job on Sealink ferries in Dover, their main competitor.

Sealink was taken over by Stena Line who then merged with P&O who eventually took control completely. So a good ten plus years since they sacked me I was working for them again. I wasn't happy about it, nor were countless other ex strikers now employed by Stena but we were stuck with it. Lots of bad feeling, especially having to work with ex scabs, although they kept us apart for a five year "Settling in period." I stayed there until I took early retirement at the end of 2016. During that time we were relocated on paper to Jersey, although nothing changed onboard. I think it was just after I left they went under the Cypriot flag and I remember there was lots of concern amongst employees about their tax, national insurance etcetera.

I've said all.along the losing 100 million a year for years was total bollocks. The problem is, like the lies the media print about City people believe it. In the pandemic they took government money and furloughed lots of crew. They obviously had ships running carrying freight as the country needed the goods so they were making money at that time with limited crew costs.

They are and have always been an utter shitehouse of a company going back decades.

 

[Blue Mist]

I have a long and chequered history with them. In 1988 I was sacked by them in the Dover seaman's strike after refusing to sign new inferior contracts and I was on strike for 16 months. I was on the scrapheap.as due to a technicality on missing a signing date on the British shipping federation I lost my federated status. This meant every other seagoing job I applied for ( Not that there were many due to the flag of convenience) I was told they were taking federated seafarers first. I asked the local union for help and got nowhere. Eventually I wrote a four page letter to the head of the union, Sam McLuskie, denouncing the way they'd abandoned me after staying loyal to them on the strike and threatening to go to the press. Within 72 hours of their receipt of that letter I had a job on Sealink ferries in Dover, their main competitor.

Sealink was taken over by Stena Line who then merged with P&O who eventually took control completely. So a good ten plus years since they sacked me I was working for them again. I wasn't happy about it, nor were countless other ex strikers now employed by Stena but we were stuck with it. Lots of bad feeling, especially having to work with ex scabs, although they kept us apart for a five year "Settling in period." I stayed there until I took early retirement at the end of 2016. During that time we were relocated on paper to Jersey, although nothing changed onboard. I think it was just after I left they went under the Cypriot flag and I remember there was lots of concern amongst employees about their tax, national insurance etcetera.

I've said all.along the losing 100 million a year for years was total bollocks. The problem is, like the lies the media print about City people believe it. In the pandemic they took government money and furloughed lots of crew. They obviously had ships running carrying freight as the country needed the goods so they were making money at that time with limited crew costs.

They are and have always been an utter shitehouse of a company going back decades.

That is a sad indictment of Britain. Let down by your employer, failed by your union.
You are bang on about the British press as well. The bbc used to be unbiased and the one outlet you could trust, not anymore.

 

[paulchapo]

That is a sad indictment of Britain. Let down by your employer, failed by your union.
You are bang on about the British press as well. The bbc used to be unbiased and the one outlet you could trust, not anymore.

It was the days of Thatcher's Britain. She destroyed the NUM in 1984, the print workers in 1986 and then us, the NUS in 1988. The union was the local branch ran by a foot in both camps wanker who was a local magistrate as well as the union official. I went to him in desperation after trying months to get work. When he said there was nothing he could do to help me I almost hit him. It shows you what can be done when I wrote the letter and I was told the interview was a formality I had the job.

As for the press and media, trace the money and who's behind them and you see what you're up against.

 

[bluethrunthru]

well fancy that - amazing......not

 

[Blue Mist]

well fancy that - amazing......not

This is when you know politics is a sham. Having turned up for a protest, no doubt because the media were there, is she really that thick she didn't think anyone would look at how she voted ?
This isnt an attack on the tories, Labour are just as bad. We have a system that rewards liars and cheats. They look after each other, expenses and second homes being the obvious scandles.

 

[dave_blue12]

This is when you know politics is a sham. Having turned up for a protest, no doubt because the media were there, is she really that thick she didn't think anyone would look at how she voted ?
This isnt an attack on the tories, Labour are just as bad. We have a system that rewards liars and cheats. They look after each other, expenses and second homes being the obvious scandles.

Ah the old ‘Labour are just as bad’ mantra.

NO THEY FUCKING AREN’T !

Whilst not perfect Labour, Libdems and Greens are fucking angels next to the despicable self serving morally bankrupt cunts we currently have in power.

FFS when are people going to wake up and understand what is happening?

 

[PragueBlue]

This is when you know politics is a sham. Having turned up for a protest, no doubt because the media were there, is she really that thick she didn't think anyone would look at how she voted ?
This isnt an attack on the tories, Labour are just as bad. We have a system that rewards liars and cheats. They look after each other, expenses and second homes being the obvious scandles.

Generally agree but not as bad as the current lot. Voted for both in the past. Won't be voting for either anytime in the near future.

 

[Blue Mist]

Ah the old ‘Labour are just as bad’ mantra.

NO THEY FUCKING AREN’T !

Whilst not perfect Labour, Libdems and Greens are fucking angels next to the despicable self serving morally bankrupt cunts we currently have in power.

FFS when are people going to wake up and understand what is happening?

Fuck me, why do people have to be so defensive, aggressive and argumentative! Especially Labour supporters it seems.
I mentioned second homes, that dick Bryant who is gobbling off about us at the moment, rented his out.
I mentioned expenses, loads from all political parties were at it, some even went to prison.
Most politicians are self serving greedy hypocrites.
If you believe that Labour are whiter than white and all tories are bastards, there is no help for you.
For what it's worth, I have criticised both parties before and will continue to do so.

 

[Blue Mist]

Generally agree but not as bad as the current lot. Voted for both in the past. Won't be voting for either anytime in the near future.

I agree, the fact that Downing Street were having parties when people were not allowed to visit relatives in care homes was a disgrace.
When the Ukranian invasion dies down I hope this lot are hung out to dry, it is unfortunately now being forgotten because of the awful events unfolding....but not by me.

 

[west didsblue]

Generally agree but not as bad as the current lot. Voted for both in the past. Won't be voting for either anytime in the near future.

Labour have got rid of Corbyn and the far left from most influential areas making them very electable with Starmer as leader. Why would you not vote for them if they offered the best chance of getting rid of the current government? Like others have said, they're not perfect and it's not difficult to find examples of hypocrisy but there's nothing on the scale of what some senior Tories have got up to, led by the biggest charlatan of the lot.

 

[Blue Mist]

Labour have got rid of Corbyn and the far left from most influential areas making them very electable with Starmer as leader. Why would you not vote for them if they offered the best chance of getting rid of the current government? Like others have said, they're not perfect and it's not difficult to find examples of hypocrisy but there's nothing on the scale of what some senior Tories have got up to, led by the biggest charlatan of the lot.

If Starmer can put together a decent election pitch where everyone sings from the same hymn sheet I cannot see why not.
Also he reminds the voters of Dominic Cummings wandering round the North East, parties at No. 10, the many different sleaze allegations. A hell of a lot of wrong doing has been forgotten because of Ukraine. He needs to remind everyone.

 

[west didsblue]

If Starmer can put together a decent election pitch where everyone sings from the same hymn sheet I cannot see why not.
Also he reminds the voters of Dominic Cummings wandering round the North East, parties at No. 10, the many different sleaze allegations. A hell of a lot of wrong doing has been forgotten because of Ukraine. He needs to remind everyone.

Not often I agree with you!