Pep Guardiola

[Mancio]

oh god. Classic expectation realignment to suit a narrative.

We are the English fucking champions. We have miles better players than Dortmund and Ajax. Therefore our results have been poor. Ludicrous to suggest anything else.

We do have some very good players, some of our players are better than some of Dortmund's players (some of theirs are better than some of ours) but their whole collective product is better than ours, so it doesn't matter which individual players you can point to because a team is greater than its individuals.

And who's responsibility is it to make a team greater than its individuals?

it's responsibility of the time

all the money we spent make us better than thousands of teams all over the world , but there could always be few exceptions , like dortmund is.

City has not had the luxury of a slow unambitious build up in the years , like dormund has had.

City has been very quickly built up with the target of immediate results , and results (titles) have came.

a lot of club tried the dortmund way , but that is a long time and difficult way , so difficult that only a couple of teams are having great results following that way , and they weren't pressurized by expectatives of immediate success.

 

[Anonymous]

it's responsibility of the time

all the money we spent make us better than thousands of teams all over the world , but there could always be few exceptions , like dortmund is.

City has not had the luxury of a slow unambitious build up in the years , like dormund has had.

City has been very quickly built up with the target of immediate results , and results (titles) have came.

a lot of club tried the dortmund way , but that is a long time and difficult way , so difficult that only a couple of teams are having great results following that way , and they weren't pressuruzed by expectatives of immediate success.

Huh?

Klopp has been at Dortmund 18 months longer than Mancini's been at City ... but Mancini's had the luxury of being able to spend over 300 million pounds. I'd say that evens out the "time" argument.

The fact is that Dortmund's recruitment policy has been excellent, and their manager has from very early has gotten the players to buy into his methods. It's why they are better than the sum of their parts. Nothing to do with time.

 

[Deleted member 52846]

oh god. Classic expectation realignment to suit a narrative.

We are the English fucking champions. We have miles better players than Dortmund and Ajax. Therefore our results have been poor. Ludicrous to suggest anything else.

We do have some very good players, some of our players are better than some of Dortmund's players (some of theirs are better than some of ours) but their whole collective product is better than ours, so it doesn't matter which individual players you can point to because a team is greater than its individuals.

And who's responsibility is it to make a team greater than its individuals?

It's nobodies responsibility, it is just a fact that occurs. A team is always greater than its individuals, that goes for every team before a manager even comes into the equation. City as a team are greater than it's individuals but Dourtmund's collection of players create a better whole than City's and are arguably just as good as Madrid's, even though David Silva and CRonaldo are better than any individual Dortmund player. It's like comparing two bands and saying Band A has better musicians but Band B have the better overall songs.

Also just because Dortmund are better than us doesn't mean we aren't good or aren't doing things right. It's just one of this things. There's always someone better. We're probably the fifth or sixth best side in Europe with Juventus but there are certainly four better sides than us and Juve. We're not doing anything wrong there. A hybrid of Clough Ferguson and Paisley could come along and still not make us as good as the four teams better than us now. Their collection of players could just be a greater whole than ours full stop.

 

[Mancio]

there is another important thing people should see

dortmund are 9 points from the germany league top
real madrid are 8 points from the spanish league top
ajax are 9 points from the mighty holland league top

City are what ? Top of the premier league.

this is likely to means that dortmund real madrid and ajax has done a choice sacrificing their domestic league ambitions and almost using their domestic games as training sessions for their champions league games. it's an old history and we saw a lot of teams during the years did the same choice.

 

[adrianr]

For all this talk of how wonderful Dortmund and Klopp are, they're not exactly lighting up the Bundesliga. 9 points behind Bayern, less than half the goal difference, if they stay where they are they're not even in the CL next season (I'm sure they'll get there, just the point that teams and managers, no matter how supposedly good, can under perform from time to time).

Edit: Beaten above.

 

[Anonymous]

there is another important thing people should see

dortmund are 9 points from the germany league top
real madrid are 8 points from the spanish league top
ajax are 9 points from the mighty holland league top

City are what ? Top of the premier league.

this is likely to means that dortmund real madrid and ajax has done a choice sacrificing their domestic league ambitions and almost using their domesting games as training sessions for their champions league games. it's an old history and we saw a lot of teams during the years did the same choice.

Dortmund had won the league two years running and have a squad which is much smaller than ours in terms of both numbers, and quality. They clearly prioritised the CL. Mancini has the luxury of being able to field practically two different teams of very high quality if he wants to.

Madrid are 8 points behind the best team in the world. Ever. In the history of football.

No doubt things are going very well for City domestically, but it's a manifest fact that Pep's name will be linked with City until he takes a job next summer. It's a reality we all have to live with.

 

[Maldeika]

For all this talk of how wonderful Dortmund and Klopp are, they're not exactly lighting up the Bundesliga. 9 points behind Bayern, less than half the goal difference, if they stay where they are they're not even in the CL next season (I'm sure they'll get there, just the point that teams and managers, no matter how supposedly good, can under perform from time to time).

Edit: Beaten above.

I do not think, that they prioritise it - but it is difficult to concentrate on both. They do not field worse teams in the Bundesliga - but it is a mental problem for the players, too. If everybody just steps down 5 per cent it gets a lot more difficult - and for a team like Dortmund it might even be easier now to play in the CL where they can go only for the break than in the Bundesliga where other teams might sit back and wait on Dortmund to make the match - they are no ball possession team with a high precision.

A lot of the success of Dortmund the recent two years had to do with motivation, mentality and team.

The size of a squad can be an advantage or a disadvantage. It makes the team thinking more difficult when the team is so big - but with injuries and work load a big squad is preferrable...

 

[Breaker]

Pep will probably crash and burn in the Prem away to Stoke, Evertom, Sunderland, West Ham etc. He really has a lot to prove. The new Barca manager seems to be doing a better job. Mancini on the other hand has proved to be a great manager in the white heat of battle - even when the opposition is NOT playing football.

Mancini's had a great away record but we've been shit against the clubs you've mentioned..don't think we beat a single one of them away last time out.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I have said this already and I will say it again, just so people get it. I do not want a change of manager now. In future, at a more appropriate time, maybe, depending on how we have done. But not now and maybe not ever.

However, the fact I do not want a change of manager does not mean Mancini is beyond criticism. If Dortmund are a better side than us, then we are underachieving. We have spent a shit load of money and Mancini has had 2 years to drill his methods into the players. If after 2 years, we are still not as good as Dortmund, that is not good and the manager has to take responsibility for that.

If he had only been here for a few months, there would be some defence. But not after 2 years. If Dortmund are a better team, their manager is doing a better job than ours.

 

[CityCTID]

there is another important thing people should see

dortmund are 9 points from the germany league top
real madrid are 8 points from the spanish league top
ajax are 9 points from the mighty holland league top

City are what ? Top of the premier league.

this is likely to means that dortmund real madrid and ajax has done a choice sacrificing their domestic league ambitions and almost using their domesting games as training sessions for their champions league games. it's an old history and we saw a lot of teams during the years did the same choice.

Dortmund had won the league two years running and have a squad which is much smaller than ours in terms of both numbers, and quality. They clearly prioritised the CL. Mancini has the luxury of being able to field practically two different teams of very high quality if he wants to.

Madrid are 8 points behind the best team in the world. Ever. In the history of football.

No doubt things are going very well for City domestically, but it's a manifest fact that Pep's name will be linked with City until he takes a job next summer. It's a reality we all have to live with.

Klopp before Dortmund....Meh

Klopp was appointed as manager at Mainz 05 in 2001, stayed there for seven years where he led the team to its first appearance in the Bundesliga, and qualification for the 2005 UEFA Cup. At the end of 2006–07 season, Mainz 05 were relegated. But due to the fact that Mainz 05 were not able to achieve promotion, he resigned and Jumped Ship at the end of the 2007–08 season ....... Alan Cürßishley? o;)

 

[BlueAnorak]

Pep will probably crash and burn in the Prem away to Stoke, Evertom, Sunderland, West Ham etc. He really has a lot to prove. The new Barca manager seems to be doing a better job. Mancini on the other hand has proved to be a great manager in the white heat of battle - even when the opposition is NOT playing football.

Mancini's had a great away record but we've been shit against the clubs you've mentioned..don't think we beat a single one of them away last time out.

So what's the point in changing?
This thread is total insanity and those wanting Pep now or for the next 5 seasons need to give their heads a wobble before hanging it in shame.

The fact that Roberto has a rock solid 5 year contract (we would have gone elsewhere if it wasn't) should tell you everything you need to know. He is the boss for the next 4 seasons at least.

 

[dancity19]

We do have some very good players, some of our players are better than some of Dortmund's players (some of theirs are better than some of ours) but their whole collective product is better than ours, so it doesn't matter which individual players you can point to because a team is greater than its individuals.

And who's responsibility is it to make a team greater than its individuals?

It's nobodies responsibility, it is just a fact that occurs. A team is always greater than its individuals, that goes for every team before a manager even comes into the equation. City as a team are greater than it's individuals but Dourtmund's collection of players create a better whole than City's and are arguably just as good as Madrid's, even though David Silva and CRonaldo are better than any individual Dortmund player. It's like comparing two bands and saying Band A has better musicians but Band B have the better overall songs.

Also just because Dortmund are better than us doesn't mean we aren't good or aren't doing things right. It's just one of this things. There's always someone better. We're probably the fifth or sixth best side in Europe with Juventus but there are certainly four better sides than us and Juve. We're not doing anything wrong there. A hybrid of Clough Ferguson and Paisley could come along and still not make us as good as the four teams better than us now. Their collection of players could just be a greater whole than ours full stop.

I've read this post now a number of times, and I still don't quite understand what you are getting at? So things "just happen"?? Bizarre, if thats the case is there any point in a manager?

So it's just one of those things that Moyes can consistently mould a good hard working side on a low budget. It's just one of those things Allerdyce and Pulis have a similar ability to get the best out of 'poorer' players. Yet other managers on similar budgets haven't been able to achieve the same feet.

I am not here to try and disprove what you are saying. I like Mancini. I recognise his faults, but I don't want him out. But to say it 'is just one of those things' is far too simplistic. The first rule of management is to organise your team in a way which gets the most out of your players.

Dortmund were a better 'team' than us, and one of the best 'teams' I have seen at City. But that isn't just coincidence.

That being said, Mancini has the ability to get the most out of our players. Look at how we played the start of last season. It is phenomenal to think we are unbeaten, and top of the league, considering we really haven't moved out of 3rd gear. We are nowhere near as good as we were this time last year, and that is a fantastic prospect.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Pep will probably crash and burn in the Prem away to Stoke, Evertom, Sunderland, West Ham etc. He really has a lot to prove. The new Barca manager seems to be doing a better job. Mancini on the other hand has proved to be a great manager in the white heat of battle - even when the opposition is NOT playing football.

Mancini's had a great away record but we've been shit against the clubs you've mentioned..don't think we beat a single one of them away last time out.

So what's the point in changing?
This thread is total insanity and those wanting Pep now or for the next 5 seasons need to give their heads a wobble before hanging it in shame.

The fact that Roberto has a rock solid 5 year contract (we would have gone elsewhere if it wasn't) should tell you everything you need to know. He is the boss for the next 4 seasons at least.

Did you bother to actually read any of the posts in this thread? Just wondering.

 

[Deleted member 52846]

And who's responsibility is it to make a team greater than its individuals?

It's nobodies responsibility, it is just a fact that occurs. A team is always greater than its individuals, that goes for every team before a manager even comes into the equation. City as a team are greater than it's individuals but Dourtmund's collection of players create a better whole than City's and are arguably just as good as Madrid's, even though David Silva and CRonaldo are better than any individual Dortmund player. It's like comparing two bands and saying Band A has better musicians but Band B have the better overall songs.

Also just because Dortmund are better than us doesn't mean we aren't good or aren't doing things right. It's just one of this things. There's always someone better. We're probably the fifth or sixth best side in Europe with Juventus but there are certainly four better sides than us and Juve. We're not doing anything wrong there. A hybrid of Clough Ferguson and Paisley could come along and still not make us as good as the four teams better than us now. Their collection of players could just be a greater whole than ours full stop.

I've read this post now a number of times, and I still don't quite understand what you are getting at? So things "just happen"?? Bizarre, if thats the case is there any point in a manager?

So it's just one of those things that Moyes can consistently mould a good hard working side on a low budget. It's just one of those things Allerdyce and Pulis have a similar ability to get the best out of 'poorer' players. Yet other managers on similar budgets haven't been able to achieve the same feet.

I am not here to try and disprove what you are saying. I like Mancini. I recognise his faults, but I don't want him out. But to say it 'is just one of those things' is far too simplistic. The first rule of management is to organise your team in a way which gets the most out of your players.

Dortmund were a better 'team' than us, and one of the best 'teams' I have seen at City. But that isn't just coincidence.

That being said, Mancini has the ability to get the most out of our players. Look at how we played the start of last season. It is phenomenal to think we are unbeaten, and top of the league, considering we really haven't moved out of 3rd gear. We are nowhere near as good as we were this time last year, and that is a fantastic prospect.

No. Of course the manager has great influence on the team and how they perform. The other poster seems to think that individual players are what defines a team, because "we have better players than Dortmund" we should be better than Dortmund. I said it doesn't work like that because the collection of players in a team is greater than any individual or a number of individuals. My stance is that football isn't played by players it's played by teams. The team is a whole one, one team v another team. Therefore a team is always greater than is individuals.

I agree with everything you say with regards to managers. But that is a fact before a manager is even brought into the equation.

 

[dancity19]

It's nobodies responsibility, it is just a fact that occurs. A team is always greater than its individuals, that goes for every team before a manager even comes into the equation. City as a team are greater than it's individuals but Dourtmund's collection of players create a better whole than City's and are arguably just as good as Madrid's, even though David Silva and CRonaldo are better than any individual Dortmund player. It's like comparing two bands and saying Band A has better musicians but Band B have the better overall songs.

Also just because Dortmund are better than us doesn't mean we aren't good or aren't doing things right. It's just one of this things. There's always someone better. We're probably the fifth or sixth best side in Europe with Juventus but there are certainly four better sides than us and Juve. We're not doing anything wrong there. A hybrid of Clough Ferguson and Paisley could come along and still not make us as good as the four teams better than us now. Their collection of players could just be a greater whole than ours full stop.

I've read this post now a number of times, and I still don't quite understand what you are getting at? So things "just happen"?? Bizarre, if thats the case is there any point in a manager?

So it's just one of those things that Moyes can consistently mould a good hard working side on a low budget. It's just one of those things Allerdyce and Pulis have a similar ability to get the best out of 'poorer' players. Yet other managers on similar budgets haven't been able to achieve the same feet.

I am not here to try and disprove what you are saying. I like Mancini. I recognise his faults, but I don't want him out. But to say it 'is just one of those things' is far too simplistic. The first rule of management is to organise your team in a way which gets the most out of your players.

Dortmund were a better 'team' than us, and one of the best 'teams' I have seen at City. But that isn't just coincidence.

That being said, Mancini has the ability to get the most out of our players. Look at how we played the start of last season. It is phenomenal to think we are unbeaten, and top of the league, considering we really haven't moved out of 3rd gear. We are nowhere near as good as we were this time last year, and that is a fantastic prospect.

No. Of course the manager has great influence on the team and how they perform. The other poster seems to think that individual players are what defines a team, because "we have better players than Dortmund" we should be better than Dortmund. I said it doesn't work like that because the collection of players in a team is greater than any individual or a number of individuals. My stance is that football isn't played by players it's played by teams. The team is a whole one, one team v another team. Therefore a team is always greater than is individuals.

I agree with everything you say with regards to managers. But that is a fact before a manager is even brought into the equation.

Ok- I understand what you are getting at more now. Basically you are saying that regardless of the quality of players (to an extent, obi they have to be good) what actually matters is how they fit together, and sometimes it is about how they work as a team rather than just how good the individuals are..??

I think that is basically what Dave is saying too, to be honest. We should be better than Dortmund on our day though, so that's where I disagree with you. They were a phenomenal team, as I said in my last post. But our players, if moulded together correctly should be better than their players.

For arguments sake- imagine Mancini was the Dortmund manager, not Klopp. Would that team play that way? Obviously we don't know, but that is why you have to give Klopp ultimate credit, as we have no idea if other managers would get that team to play so well.

I understand what you are saying- no matter how good our players are, they will never improve as a team hugely, because perhaps the balance or the chemistry isn't as good as Dortmunds..??

Again, we don't know that. But there is such a gulf in our league performances compared to our Champions League performances. That has to fall on Mancini's head, unfortunately. He hasn't cracked it, and is setting us up all wrong. As I said, the way replayed last season (first half) was close to getting us greater than the sum of our individual parts- so Mancini can do it. And when we play like that we are probably a better team than Dortmund.

 

[Chippy_boy]

We should be better than Dortmund. If we are not, why not?

Because you equating the quality of a team with the amount spent on it,why not look at the quality of the German league and understand that Dortmund last year were far and away the best team in it.

More expensive doesn't = better,if that was the case Andy carroll would be the 3rd best striker in the premier league,and I am sure you agree he isn't.

Missed this post earlier...

I don't think you get it at all.

I am not saying just buying more expensive players automatically makes you a better team. Of course not. That would be an insane thing to say.

What I am saying is that if team A has been given masses more money than team B, and both teams have been given a couple of years to get their act together (maybe 100 games) and at the end of it, Team B is the better team, then Team A have underachieved.

With our resources and managers of equal ability, we ought to be better by now than Dortmund. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

Personally I am not sure Dortmund are better than us. But a lot of you are saying they are, and if they are, we have underachieved.

And if that's the case, whose fault is it? Henry Kissinger?

 

[waspish]

We should be better than Dortmund. If we are not, why not?

Because you equating the quality of a team with the amount spent on it,why not look at the quality of the German league and understand that Dortmund last year were far and away the best team in it.

More expensive doesn't = better,if that was the case Andy carroll would be the 3rd best striker in the premier league,and I am sure you agree he isn't.

Missed this post earlier...

I don't think you get it at all.

I am not saying just buying more expensive players automatically makes you a better team. Of course not. That would be an insane thing to say.

What I am saying is that if team A has been given masses more money than team B, and both teams have been given a couple of years to get their act together (maybe 100 games) and at the end of it, Team B is the better team, then Team A have underachieved.

With our resources and managers of equal ability, we ought to be better by now than Dortmund. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

Personally I am not sure Dortmund are better than us. But a lot of you are saying they are, and if they are, we have underachieved.

And if that's the case, whose fault is it? Henry Kissinger?

There's a thread on here some where that shows stats over the last 2 seasons I think that proves we have been the best team in the premier...

Oh Dortmund av been pretty shit this season not even in the top 4 of there league

 

[royle]

We should be better than Dortmund. If we are not, why not?

Because you equating the quality of a team with the amount spent on it,why not look at the quality of the German league and understand that Dortmund last year were far and away the best team in it.

More expensive doesn't = better,if that was the case Andy carroll would be the 3rd best striker in the premier league,and I am sure you agree he isn't.

Missed this post earlier...

I don't think you get it at all.

I am not saying just buying more expensive players automatically makes you a better team. Of course not. That would be an insane thing to say.

What I am saying is that if team A has been given masses more money than team B, and both teams have been given a couple of years to get their act together (maybe 100 games) and at the end of it, Team B is the better team, then Team A have underachieved.

With our resources and managers of equal ability, we ought to be better by now than Dortmund. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

Personally I am not sure Dortmund are better than us. But a lot of you are saying they are, and if they are, we have underachieved.

And if that's the case, whose fault is it? Henry Kissinger?

But then so should Madrid,and they are better than Madrid,4 points to 1 over two games in Dortmunds favour and this with a more expensively produced squad than ours and with Mourinhio who is regarded as the best manager in the world.

 

[greasedupdeafguy]

Because you equating the quality of a team with the amount spent on it,why not look at the quality of the German league and understand that Dortmund last year were far and away the best team in it.

More expensive doesn't = better,if that was the case Andy carroll would be the 3rd best striker in the premier league,and I am sure you agree he isn't.

Missed this post earlier...

I don't think you get it at all.

I am not saying just buying more expensive players automatically makes you a better team. Of course not. That would be an insane thing to say.

What I am saying is that if team A has been given masses more money than team B, and both teams have been given a couple of years to get their act together (maybe 100 games) and at the end of it, Team B is the better team, then Team A have underachieved.

With our resources and managers of equal ability, we ought to be better by now than Dortmund. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

Personally I am not sure Dortmund are better than us. But a lot of you are saying they are, and if they are, we have underachieved.

And if that's the case, whose fault is it? Henry Kissinger?

But then so should Madrid,and they are better than Madrid,4 points to 1 over two games in Dortmunds favour and this with a more expensively produced squad than ours and with Mourinhio who is regarded as the best manager in the world.

Madrid didnt get battered by Ajax though

 

[Anonymous]

there is another important thing people should see

dortmund are 9 points from the germany league top
real madrid are 8 points from the spanish league top
ajax are 9 points from the mighty holland league top

City are what ? Top of the premier league.

this is likely to means that dortmund real madrid and ajax has done a choice sacrificing their domestic league ambitions and almost using their domestic games as training sessions for their champions league games. it's an old history and we saw a lot of teams during the years did the same choice.

Bang on.

Mancini has won us two trophies in two years including the league at the last attempt.

We are unbeaten at the top of the hardest league in the world.

He is the bollocks.