PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

If they had that evidence, the Premier League would have already produced it.

I don't believe they are trying to catch us in a lie, produce a smoking gun at arbitration.

It's gone this far because we simply know everything you have brilliantly explained, we know the law better than they seemingly do and the bar is extremely high.

We've taken the smears, but I genuinely believe the Club and our executives have gamed the whole battle process out and accepted that downside to win the entire war.

The Premier League ran out of road and here we are.
"We've taken the smears, but I genuinely believe the Club and our executives have gamed the whole battle process out and accepted that downside to win the entire war."

Our brand has taken one hell of a hit for that to be the case.

I am not doubting what you believe and our owners are very clever people ( far cleverer than the PL) but the victory will have to come with huge advantages to cover the previous damage caused by UEFA and the PL.
 
I continually remember that our sponsorship was accepted by UEFA as being of a fair value, under the relevant services to Etihad under the contract had unquestionably been provided, and Etihad had paid for the services in full, with the money coming direct from Etihad. And yet UEFA thought this conduct deserved a two-year ban from their competitions coupled with a fine of tens of millions of Euro.

I still think that such a penalty was clearly disproportionate even if UEFA had managed to prove that somehow equity funding was being injected under the above model. After all, the scheme, had it existed, would have entailed City gifting to Etihad for £8 million sponsorship services worth, according to UEFA's independent expert appraiser, many times that figure at the same time as denying the club itself an opportunity to seek a sponsor that the club wouldn't have to subsidise in this way.

Thus, the alleged scheme wouldn't have involved City illegitimately raising our income by funnelling into the club extra sponsorship funds beyond the fair value we could expect from a third-party sponsor. IMO, that's a salient point, to which UEFA paid no heed in determining the penalty. And a succession of lamebrained cunts acting in the utmost bad faith (I'm looking at you, Simon Jordan, among others) still claim that we did this despite the outcome of the UEFA case.

BUT. There's been a lot of comment on here that the PL are looking to cover matters not litigated at the CAS in the UEFA proceedings, and that's clearly true. However, the PL also seem to be litigating matters that were covered in those proceedings. I suppose there are motives for them to do that if they don't have any more serious evidence than UEFA had, but it would seem a strange course of action to me if they really don't.

Agreed 100%.
 
I like you keep thinking is there any way the non cooperation can be defended?

I know we don’t know what or how they asked for evidence & we don’t know City’s response was.

I felt we had legitimate concerns with UEFA & evidence supported the concerns. Obviously not in eyes of the panel.
Actually we do. It’s in the court of appeal judgment that the PL asked us for documents which we refused to provide.


see Para 3
 
A quick follow-up then I will shut up about this as well. Honestly.

Just providing the information requested doesn't mean we have been co-operating in good faith, does it? If the club has been withholding evidence from the investigation that would exonerate the club from wrong-doing, but didn't provide it because the PL didn't request it, or don't have the authority to request it, wouldn't that be classified as non-compliance "in good faith"?

Thinking about accounting analysis from Etihad and ADUG that the PL knows we have because it was presented at CAS, for example.
See above
 
"We've taken the smears, but I genuinely believe the Club and our executives have gamed the whole battle process out and accepted that downside to win the entire war."

Our brand has taken one hell of a hit for that to be the case.

I am not doubting what you believe and our owners are very clever people ( far cleverer than the PL) but the victory will have to come with huge advantages to cover the previous damage caused by UEFA and the PL.

The huge advantage would be this monkey off our backs, once and for all?

It's a monkey that is now 12 years old and is the same monkey.

If the Execs think the same way as me, they don't give a fuck what other fans or media think, as long as we continue the thrive on and off the pitch, as we have done since they came in the door?

You can't argue with stupid, but you can leave them pissing in the wind and with nowhere else to go.

Like CAS, I didn't care how others wanted to interpret the verdict.

Same again, as long as we win, the rest is just partisan, boiled piss.

Those who want to be associated with us, will continue to do so.
 
If they had that evidence, the Premier League would have already produced it.

I don't believe they are trying to catch us in a lie, produce a smoking gun at arbitration.

It's gone this far because we simply know everything you have brilliantly explained, we know the law better than they seemingly do and the bar is extremely high.

We've taken the smears, but I genuinely believe the Club and our executives have gamed the whole battle process out and accepted that downside to win the entire war.

The Premier League ran out of road and here we are.

*like*

I agree if they had that evidence the club would know about it. And it probably would have been leaked. The only point I‘m making is that IF they don’t have that evidence, as a matter of law I don’t see how they can win bearing what they have to prove to make the charges stick.
 
"We've taken the smears, but I genuinely believe the Club and our executives have gamed the whole battle process out and accepted that downside to win the entire war."

Our brand has taken one hell of a hit for that to be the case.

I am not doubting what you believe and our owners are very clever people ( far cleverer than the PL) but the victory will have to come with huge advantages to cover the previous damage caused by UEFA and the PL.
We're not doing too badly on and off tge pitch despite the reputational damage.
Clearing our name and continuing our upward trajectory will sort out any damage, as tge next generation of worldwide supporters climb on board tge city success train
 
WE HAVE COOPERATED. BELATEDLY. NOT EARLY ENOUGH TO AVOID A CHARGE OF NON COOPERATION, BUT ENOUGH FOR THE PL TO CONDUCT THEIR INVESTIGATION. IF TOLMIES HAIRDOO IS CORRECT, AND HE USUALLY IS, WE HAVE GIVEN THE PL ENOUGH DOCUMENTATION TO FILL A PORTAKABIN. SO THE NON COOPERATION CHARGE OF WHICH WE ARE IMO GUILTY IS NOT “YOU DIDN’T GIVE US THE DOCUMENTS AT ALL”, IT IS “YOU DIDN‘T GIVE US THE DOCUMENTS WE ASKED FOR WHEN WE ASKED FOR THEM.”

Yes, this seems to be the position. But surely the fact that we cooperated after the High Court ruling on the matter would be relevant in terms of deciding the punishment? Even the CAS agreed that we deserved a fairly heavy fine for not cooperating in those proceedings, but the circumstances then were quite different.

Then, we expressly declined to cooperate, telling UEFA we didn't trust their process, and waited until we went before an independent tribunal before producing relevant evidence. Here, we told the PL that we didn't think they were entitled to ask for what they had, no doubt on legal advice. It turned out that the High Court agreed with them and not us. If we cooperated in full once we had clarification of what we were legally entitled to ask for, then it would seem to mitigate City's position significantly, wouldn't it?

I also note, and believe, TH's comment to the effect that we've provided the PL with a welter of material. In MCFC's own statement, the club made reference to the "vast amount of detailed materials that the EPL has been provided with". The point in this regard that I (like others) find hard to square in my own mind is why, in this event, the PL has charged us.

We've already run through the theoretical possibilities (either they have convincing evidence we're not aware of or they've given in when pressured by the redshirts to follow this course). To those, Stefan added another - that we're incorrect in our analysis with regard to the standard of proof.

If we speculate on the point that they did so having folded in the face of pressure, then I think a further issue worth raising here is the role of the media. Back in a previous lifetime, I worked for six years in the UK central government, and I've seen how ostensibly sensible and professional people can sometimes act in ways that seem to run completely counter to those qualities with a view to avoiding public criticism.

With regard to the Der Spiegel emails, I don't dispute that they showed City in a wholly negative light and were extremely damaging. Comments and discussions were committed to email that never should have been (to say nothing of the questions the episode raised with regard to our IT security, but that's a separate issue). However, Der Spiegel's presentation of the hacked documents was IMO highly selective and sensational, resulting it it being misleading to a layman reader. Intentionally so, I suspect.

The British press's resultant coverage was, however, utterly hysterical. I understand that this was a big story and it quite clearly raised serious questions for the club to answer. I have no problem with it being reported as such. But the rush to condemn the club - and the general attendant glee at having the opportunity to do so - went far, far beyond any notion of fair and impartial reporting. The only mainstream media figure with any sympathy for us was Martin Samuel, and even he assumed from the off that we were guilty.

People label this kind of thinking as paranoid, but there are journalists out there who've admitted to pushing in their reporting a line of argument that's aimed at discrediting City. Miguel Delaney and Nick Harris have both been quite open on social media about having done (and continuing to do) so, while The Guardian seems very clearly to me to have an anti-City editorial stance.

In this context, it matters little why they do this. The fact is that it sets an agenda and the rest of the football press pack follows. These people have minimal knowledge or expertise when it comes to the off-field aspects of the game, so when the prevailing narrative is set, they follow. That's what's happened with City, IMO. A few have stirred the pot and succeeded in creating a febrile environment in which MCFC are acknowledged as cheats so punishment is expected.

My contention is that, in a context where the PL has faced considerable pressure from within on the part of the redshirts to act against City, there's been considerable pressure from without, too. We'll gain an idea of what the truth is in due course, I suppose, but for now I don't find it inconceivable that the media attitude could have influenced the PL to a certain, contributory degree (I'm not saying it could be the main factor).

After all, I think that few people when taking a decision with ramifications that interest many people want to find that decision widely and publicly lambasted. And a decision on the part of the PL to decline to charge City would have been met with vituperative condemnation from the usual suspects and, most likely, from far wider quarters than that.
 
We're not doing too badly on and off tge pitch despite the reputational damage.
Clearing our name and continuing our upward trajectory will sort out any damage, as tge next generation of worldwide supporters climb on board tge city success train
The smears have affected us off the field in terms of sponsors, particularly UK , Europe based.
 
The huge advantage would be this monkey off our backs, once and for all?

It's a monkey that is now 12 years old and is the same monkey.

If the Execs think the same way as me, they don't give a fuck what other fans or media think, as long as we continue the thrive on and off the pitch, as we have done since they came in the door?

You can't argue with stupid, but you can leave them pissing in the wind and with nowhere else to go.

Like CAS, I didn't care how others wanted to interpret the verdict.

Same again, as long as we win, the rest is just partisan, boiled piss.

Those who want to be associated with us, will continue to do so.
Very true, and one thing our owners do is look very long term, so if the irrefutable evidence is just that, the good times will get even better financially.
 

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