PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Is this good news or bad news ??
Basically the assumption before was that offences that were allegedly committed 6 years before the charges were brought would be time barred and so we could face no punishment for them even if we were guilty. @slbsn is now saying that there is no time barring in the PL disciplinary rules so we could be punished for them.
 
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Basically the assumption before was that offences that were allegedly committed 6 years before the charges were brought would be tome barred and so we could face no punishment for them even if we were guilty. @slbsn is now saying that there is no time barring in the PL disciplinary rules so we could be punished for them.
I preferred the situation before he came back tbh.
 
I was asked to respond to the latest discussion against my self imposed ban on this limitation question. I do so because I have moved from my original position and the position that most lawyers on here seem to agree with. I was wrong, I think, to consider it so simply and think the focus on the overarching English law qualification of the Premier League rules may not offer the whole answer.

On reflection, I think the key here is that this is a disciplinary case under Section W. So whilst it is all governed by English law, disciplinary processes are seen differently from dispute resolution (Section X). That is usually because discipline, as in any industry, is seen as an important public confidence issue and professional wrong doing should not be allowed simply because of the passage of time.

However, this is complicated in the City case because the underlying allegations are, we think, related to matters that would ordinarily be fraud, accounting issues, financial non-compliance etc that is not merely sporting discipline. Those matters are usually non-arbitrable. These matters may fall outside the Premier League's contractual disciplinary jurisdiction entirely. You cannot prosecute fraud through a sports tribunal and avoid limitation by calling it "discipline." If the charges require proving effective criminal dishonesty, they are fraud allegations regardless of the label, and limitation should apply, six years from when the Premier League discovered (or should have discovered) the fraud.

City may have argued that the Premier League lacked jurisdiction to determine fraud allegations at all and that such matters should be in the courts where limitation, proper evidence rules, and processes apply. Whether anyone ran this argument, we do not know - City may have accepted jurisdiction. It seems that if City did accept jurisdiction, limitation is not in play. Very old allegations or weak cases could be dismissed for abuse of process but this requires the accused to show real prejudice, all unlikely here.

As I have previously said, I always felt it probably irrelevant either way, be it due to:
1) the fact that time barring could only ever, even in court, apply once all the evidence had already been heard anyway (at which point you have either brought the judge/panel with you or they are going the other way) or
2) because if the panel found against City on most of the key charges, they would have to have been deliberately concealed.

So, either way limitation would not be a bar.

Assuming City did not challenge the PLs Section W jurisdiction at this stage (perhaps leaving it for an appeal, though much harder if they never ran the argument at all), then the disciplinary proceedings probably continued treating these as regulatory breaches under Section W where no limitation periods apply. The panel will determine whether City breached the rules and ignore limitation as that question does not arise in their Section W framework.

If City lose and want to argue on appeal that the charges were actually fraud allegations outside the PL's jurisdiction, they face the problem that by participating without protest they may have accepted jurisdiction. An appeal will be reluctant to let parties submit to a process, lose, then challenge jurisdiction afterwards. The time to fight jurisdiction is at the start, not after an adverse decision. If City reserved their position explicitly throughout, an appeal might succeed on jurisdictional grounds, but if they treated it as straightforward regulatory discipline, that ship has likely sailed.
@halfcenturyup and @BerkshireBlue does this change your opinions or not?
 
Basically the assumption before was that offences that were allegedly committed 6 years before the charges were brought would be tome barred and so we could face no punishment for them even if we were guilty. @slbsn is now saying that there is no time barring in the PL disciplinary rules so we could be punished for them.
Am shocked I tell thee.
Shocked.
 
I should rise above it but I’m sick of the “rotten to the core” type comments I hear… we’re guilty regardless of the outcome apparently… The PL have done the damage already …
You should rise above it because it's no different to the animosity we hold against other clubs. Dippers are murderers and the rags run the league no matter what the truth of it is. If we weren't "cheats" we would be something else, no group of opposition fans are going to congratulate us on our achievements and agree we did it in the right way.
Most blues are convinced we're innocent regardless of the outcome so no different at all really.
 
I think the signings of Semenyo and Guehi are more than just soft signals personally. Both players were making the biggest moves of their careers, and had numerous options, but both chose City. These aren't decisions you take lightly (uprooting your family etc) and with a decision "imminent" in the 115 case, they will obviously have sought assurances from the club. I know they'll have release clauses if necessary, but if there were any slight doubts about the outcome they would have turned us down or at least waited until the summer imo. Who knows what the club told them, but it must have been more substantial than the "maintain our innocence" line they put out publicly. Clearly the club haven't been informed of the actual verdict yet, but they must be supremely confident which way this is heading.
 
Basically the assumption before was that offences that were allegedly committed 6 years before the charges were brought would be time barred and so we could face no punishment for them even if we were guilty. @slbsn is now saying that there is no time barring in the PL disciplinary rules so we could be punished for them.
Not good then! Thanks for the clarification
 
Basically the assumption before was that offences that were allegedly committed 6 years before the charges were brought would be time barred and so we could face no punishment for them even if we were guilty. @slbsn is now saying that there is no time barring in the PL disciplinary rules so we could be punished for them.

I believe what he is saying is that the most serious allegations by their very nature involve fraud and concealment so if proven the time-barring becomes irrelevant.

If another club was charged now with minor infringement of PL rules from say 2016/2017 they would rightly be able to rely on the Llimitation Act as a defence.
 
I think the signings of Semenyo and Guehi are more than just soft signals personally. Both players were making the biggest moves of their careers, and had numerous options, but both chose City. These aren't decisions you take lightly (uprooting your family etc) and with a decision "imminent" in the 115 case, they will obviously have sought assurances from the club. I know they'll have release clauses if necessary, but if there were any slight doubts about the outcome they would have turned us down or at least waited until the summer imo. Who knows what the club told them, but it must have been more substantial than the "maintain our innocence" line they put out publicly. Clearly the club haven't been informed of the actual verdict yet, but they must be supremely confident which way this is heading.

I think the club's significant investment since the charges shows they're not concerned and is more than a soft signal. I don't think players will get much more from the club, their contracts will protect them and whilst I'm sure they'd want some certainty I think it's something most will be happy to ignore as long as they're covered.
 
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I think the signings of Semenyo and Guehi are more than just soft signals personally. Both players were making the biggest moves of their careers, and had numerous options, but both chose City. These aren't decisions you take lightly (uprooting your family etc) and with a decision "imminent" in the 115 case, they will obviously have sought assurances from the club. I know they'll have release clauses if necessary, but if there were any slight doubts about the outcome they would have turned us down or at least waited until the summer imo. Who knows what the club told them, but it must have been more substantial than the "maintain our innocence" line they put out publicly. Clearly the club haven't been informed of the actual verdict yet, but they must be supremely confident which way this is heading.
I genuinely struggle to understand that line of reasoning. I don’t see how the club could possibly offer anyone a cast‑iron guarantee of its own innocence. If I wanted an honest assessment of whether someone was innocent, the very last person I’d ask is the one facing the accusation.
 
Premier league must be regretting their conduct regarding these accusations , they went for the headline 115/130 charges and this has made the process a long drawn out case , if they had reduced the charges to the basic six alleged misdemeanors then this surely wold have been wrapped up far sooner.
Blame the Premier league for grandstanding and their legal charges which could possibly top £100m , that money could have been invested in grass roots football , but the Red 'istree clubs and their puppet Masters have been self serving in the witch hunt for our club run by "foreigners with a different skin colour" .
None of these charges would have seen the light of day if we were owned by Yanks , there is definitely a racist angle to this whole episode
 
Basically the assumption before was that offences that were allegedly committed 6 years before the charges were brought would be time barred and so we could face no punishment for them even if we were guilty. @slbsn is now saying that there is no time barring in the PL disciplinary rules so we could be punished for them.

That’s an over-simplification of what he said.

The crux of his post, as I understood it, was that it’s highly unorthodox to legislate potentially criminal matters via a disciplinary procedure - if these are indeed matters of criminality (which on the face of it, they would appear to be), then this should be a criminal case. Which would be covered by the standard limitations set out in English Law, including time barring.

The crucial line for me was this one: ‘You cannot prosecute fraud through a sports tribunal and avoid limitation by calling it "discipline”’

However the point remains that - limitation or not - the principle exercise here is to prove or disprove the substance of the allegations.

This will have been the priority of the panel.

Providing City are successful in proving the allegations are unfounded, then none of this matters.

Time limitations may be addressed, as they were at CAS, as an adjunct to the judgement on the allegations (which in the CAS case was subsequently and highly cynically seized on by most of the the client journalists who represent the traditional ‘big four’ in the UK as the critical point in the entire CAS review, ignoring their clear judgements on the substance of the case).

However this would only realistically become relevant at any appeal stage.

@slbsn - acknowledging you’re taking a break at the moment, so may choose not to respond, but if I’ve misrepresented anything in your post - feel free to correct me!
 
Premier league must be regretting their conduct regarding these accusations , they went for the headline 115/130 charges and this has made the process a long drawn out case , if they had reduced the charges to the basic six alleged misdemeanors then this surely wold have been wrapped up far sooner.
Blame the Premier league for grandstanding and their legal charges which could possibly top £100m , that money could have been invested in grass roots football , but the Red 'istree clubs and their puppet Masters have been self serving in the witch hunt for our club run by "foreigners with a different skin colour" .
None of these charges would have seen the light of day if we were owned by Yanks , there is definitely a racist angle to this whole episode

If Donald Trump's behaviour is anywhere near representative of the US owners in the PL, there are so many more elements than just racism involved in their operations.

Self-serving and bullying, with the probability of both bribery and corruption involved in their operations, the threat posed by City's owners is too much for them to risk or ignore.

Finding the perfect stooge in Masters to carry out their plans to destabilise at best, or ideally ruin and destroy, together with the competition being their plans. Cabal mentality driven by greed.

US money is the genuine dirty money in this whole saga.
 
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Basically the assumption before was that offences that were allegedly committed 6 years before the charges were brought would be time barred and so we could face no punishment for them even if we were guilty. @slbsn is now saying that there is no time barring in the PL disciplinary rules so we could be punished for them.

If there's no time barred in the pl hopefully the pl will investigate pisscan
 
You should rise above it because it's no different to the animosity we hold against other clubs. Dippers are murderers and the rags run the league no matter what the truth of it is. If we weren't "cheats" we would be something else, no group of opposition fans are going to congratulate us on our achievements and agree we did it in the right way.
Most blues are convinced we're innocent regardless of the outcome so no different at all really.
Yeah, the Red Cartel muppetts spout were desperate for validation of our achievemens from the football fraternity.What a load of bollocks, im gleefull it winds the wankers up.
 
Im tired of reading, avoiding crap about our guilt from mainly armchair fans of clubs here and across the globe.
Not one mention of the magician Cherki etc and its clearly providing a barrier to attracting new support.
 

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