Player topic : Yaya Toure (2015/16)

[Marvin]

You don't see Silva pressing their keeper in possession? You don't see DeBruyne and Sterling working in sync with Silva forcing their defenders into errors? If you can't see that we are pressing effectively then I give up Marvin. You'll notice as the half wears on that Silva is directing with his arms, calling his teammates forward to press and showing them where to go. I don't know why I'm going on because you've already made up your mind that we can't press even when the evidence shows that we did press in this game, in the Sevilla game, even recently in the Southampton and Hull games there's numerous examples of where the whole attacking unit backed up by the midfield is pressing effectively.

You think I am saying one thing and get it into your head to knock over an argument I am not making. I did not say we can't press, or didn't press Borussia in the 2nd half. I know we did. What I said was that Borussia made it easy for us by withdrawing. Whether that was tactical or through tiredness I don't know.

I know Silva, Sterling, Fernandinho, Delph, Fernando are very energetic, tireless players who can press if instructed to. When Pellegrini was appointed I thought we'd play that way, but we never really have apart from small spells in games. I'd like to see our midfield do that now as default mode, and have Sterling, Silva, Aguero, De Bruyne do the damage in the final third. I think we'd be a lot more effective that the slow build up play which we indulge in now.

The Premiership is getting ever more competitive and we have to evolve, but we're still playing the same stuff we played 5 years ago when Toure, and Silva first came to the club, but Toure is now struggling and we need to move on.

 

[Rolee]

You think I am saying one thing and get it into your head to knock over an argument I am not making. I did not say we can't press, or didn't press Borussia in the 2nd half. I know we did. What I said was that Borussia made it easy for us by withdrawing. Whether that was tactical or through tiredness I don't know.

I know Silva, Sterling, Fernandinho, Delph, Fernando are very energetic, tireless players who can press if instructed to. When Pellegrini was appointed I thought we'd play that way, but we never really have apart from small spells in games. I'd like to see our midfield do that now as default mode, and have Sterling, Silva, Aguero, De Bruyne do the damage in the final third. I think we'd be a lot more effective that the slow build up play which we indulge in now.

The Premiership is getting ever more competitive and we have to evolve, but we're still playing the same stuff we played 5 years ago when Toure, and Silva first came to the club, but Toure is now struggling and we need to move on.

The comment you made that I first responded to was this

"City don't press as a team. We could if Pellegrini so wished."

 

[Dax777]

Well you've just contradicted your own post. You previous said you all press or it breaks down, so make your mind up. If people want to use the first five games as a defence of Yaya, why can't I use them as a defence for the others.

I've already given two examples on the "our defence" thread, both highlighting Yaya's lack of defensive positioning causing other players to hesitate and allowing an easy ball to be played onto our defence.

No, I did not contradict myself. Yaya is in the middle at the DM position, thus Sterling or Silva pressing the CB outlet option on the wing has no relation to whether Yaya will cover them. There is no one Yaya needs to cover for them.

They just need to pick up their assignments. And make them nine options for the CB on the ball. Rather than running at the player after the CB passes the ball to him. This leaves the CB with a tough pass across halves. All that has little to do with Yaya.

Navas does it constantly when he plays. So clearly, there are no instructions against doing it.

Thus, your claim that they don't do it because they fear Yaya wouldn't cover them makes no sense. With Delph slight left and Dihno slight right Center mid, Those 2 are almost sure to get pressure on anyone left in the middle.. There really is no excuse for Dave, Kevin or Raheem to not pick up the defensive options out wide. None

Simply put, these guys just do as poor a job as Yaya defensively.

 

[fatbloke]

No, I did not contradict myself. Yaya is in the middle at the DM position, thus Sterling or Silva pressing the CB outlet option on the wing has no relation to whether Yaya will cover them. There is no one Yaya needs to cover for them.

They just need to pick up their assignments. And make them nine options for the CB on the ball. Rather than running at the player after the CB passes the ball to him. This leaves the CB with a tough pass across halves. All that has little to do with Yaya.

Navas does it constantly when he plays. So clearly, there are no instructions against doing it.

Thus, your claim that they don't do it because they fear Yaya wouldn't cover them makes no sense. With Delph slight left and Dihno slight right Center mid, Those 2 are almost sure to get pressure on anyone left in the middle.. There really is no excuse for Dave, Kevin or Raheem to not pick up the defensive options out wide. None

Simply put, these guys just do as poor a job as Yaya defensively.

Bollocks. And you say I'm bias, haha!!

There's two crystal clear examples in just the MOTD coverage against Swansea and that's without looking where Yaya's lack of covering his teammates results directly in two clear chances against us which Hart had to save. Yet you just don't want to see it.

 

[Dax777]

Bollocks. And you say I'm bias, haha!!

There's two crystal clear examples in just the MOTD coverage against Swansea and that's without looking where Yaya's lack of covering his teammates results directly in two clear chances against us which Hart had to save. Yet you just don't want to see it.

Stay on point. Your claim was that "Dave, Raheem and Kevin don't pressure because they fear Yaya wouldn't cover for them" ( I'm paraphrasing here)

That claim is false. It is false because they don't need Yaya doing anything to do their job in that instant. It is not like Kolarov overlapping and Mangala or the DM pinching wide.

Here Raheem and Dave both need to pressure the fullbacks (I.e. their actual man responsibilities earlier in the process before those players receive a pass. Saying they don't do this because they know Yaya wouldn't cover for them is silly because there is nothing to cover for. It is simply their jobs.

This is the equivalent of saying Kolarov wouldn't go pick up the Right winger because he fears Mangala wouldn't cover for him. There is nothing to be covered for. Sure Mangala might fail to do his job, but that has little relevance to whether Kolarov should be doing his.

You excusing Dave, Raheem and Kev's not pressuring because they know Yaya wouldn't do his job is just as ridiculous as the example I outlined above using Kola and the Mang. Sure all players should work in concert, however in this scenario, Yaya's poor decision has little effect on why the others are not doing their job.

 

[cleavers]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ball-news/man-city-dont-compare-yaya-10599160

So carrying an injury and played 90 v BMG and Swans.

I said a couple of weeks ago I thought he was carrying an injury. Despite that, in the last couple of games he's been one of our best players, far too much criticism of him as usual.

 

[fatbloke]

Stay on point. Your claim was that "Dave, Raheem and Kevin don't pressure because they fear Yaya wouldn't cover for them" ( I'm paraphrasing here)

That claim is false. It is false because they don't need Yaya doing anything to do their job in that instant. It is not like Kolarov overlapping and Mangala or the DM pinching wide.

Here Raheem and Dave both need to pressure the fullbacks (I.e. their actual man responsibilities earlier in the process before those players receive a pass. Saying they don't do this because they know Yaya wouldn't cover for them is silly because there is nothing to cover for. It is simply their jobs.

This is the equivalent of saying Kolarov wouldn't go pick up the Right winger because he fears Mangala wouldn't cover for him. There is nothing to be covered for. Sure Mangala might fail to do his job, but that has little relevance to whether Kolarov should be doing his.

You excusing Dave, Raheem and Kev's not pressuring because they know Yaya wouldn't do his job is just as ridiculous as the example I outlined above using Kola and the Mang. Sure all players should work in concert, however in this scenario, Yaya's poor decision has little effect on why the others are not doing their job.

Well to be fair I said Yaya not pressing creates hesitation and then provided two clear examples of which you fail to mention both in your "paraphrasing" but don't worry if you want to make things up and exaggerate what I said to try and help your side of the argument.

I am not excusing anyone but if one of your two central midfield pivots isn't pressing of which there is clear examples, then it leaves a free man in midfield and that in itself creates doubt and hesitation because it means you're pressing for nothing if there's an easy option for whoever you're supposed to be pressing.

You tell me how Yaya failing me to press or drop back into position or how his "poor decision" doesn't affect other players in the two examples I gave, it's so blatantly obvious it's undeniable. I am not saying others aren't guilty of the same thing at times because they are and I pointed to Sterling as one of the other examples not pressing when a ball was slipped in behind Clichy against Swansea but which angle is he supposed to press, he can't block the ball back into midfield and down the line.

 

[Dax777]

Well to be fair I said Yaya not pressing creates hesitation and then provided two clear examples of which you fail to mention both in your "paraphrasing" but don't worry if you want to make things up and exaggerate what I said to try and help your side of the argument.

I am not excusing anyone but if one of your two central midfield pivots isn't pressing of which there is clear examples, then it leaves a free man in midfield and that in itself creates doubt and hesitation because it means you're pressing for nothing if there's an easy option for whoever you're supposed to be pressing.

You tell me how Yaya failing me to press or drop back into position or how his "poor decision" doesn't affect other players in the two examples I gave, it's so blatantly obvious it's undeniable. I am not saying others aren't guilty of the same thing at times because they are and I pointed to Sterling as one of the other examples not pressing when a ball was slipped in behind Clichy against Swansea but which angle is he supposed to press, he can't block the ball back into midfield and down the line.

Again, you must be mistaking me for Jackson. I have not argued Yaya is doing his job defensively. Matter of fact I have severally argued the opposite. That said, claims that others fail to do their jobs coz they are hesitant due to Yaya's weakness is simply not true.

This is a narrow point. It seems we are now in agreement. I.e. others too are failing in their defensive responsibilities.

It is also quite interesting to note, that even in the game Yaya didn't play, we were often as easy to break down. Which clearly suggests that while Yaya's laziness on defense might be a problem, others are similarly problematic in their lax defensive efforts. And this starts from the top.

Many have lamented City's unfortunate philosophy of not pressuring from the front and rightly so. Hence why I'm a fan of Pep coming here. We simply need better pressure work. And I don't pretend it is all down to Yaya being lazy. Hence why I called out the 'others hesitate because they know Yaya wouldn't pressure' comment. If that were true, they'd have pressured in the game Yaya didn't play.

Thus, that claim simply can't be true.

 

[fatbloke]

Again, you must be mistaking me for Jackson. I have not argued Yaya is doing his job defensively. Matter of fact I have severally argued the opposite. That said, claims that others fail to do their jobs coz they are hesitant due to Yaya's weakness is simply not true.

This is a narrow point. It seems we are now in agreement. I.e. others too are failing in their defensive responsibilities.

It is also quite interesting to note, that even in the game Yaya didn't play, we were often as easy to break down. Which clearly suggests that while Yaya's laziness on defense might be a problem, others are similarly problematic in their lax defensive efforts. And this starts from the top.

Many have lamented City's unfortunate philosophy of not pressuring from the front and rightly so. Hence why I'm a fan of Pep coming here. We simply need better pressure work. And I don't pretend it is all down to Yaya being lazy. Hence why I called out the 'others hesitate because they know Yaya wouldn't pressure' comment. If that were true, they'd have pressured in the game Yaya didn't play.

Thus, that claim simply can't be true.

You say that but there's two crystal clear examples that show they do hesitate due to Yaya's movement or lack of, so you can't say its "not true" because the evidence is right fucking there.

 

[Dax777]

You say that but there's two crystal clear examples that show they do hesitate due to Yaya's movement or lack of, so you can't say its "not true" because the evidence is right fucking there.

No. Those examples show Yaya's failures, but not the reasoning of others for failing to do their part.

Besides, you are simply ascribing their hesitation to Yaya, not showing or proving it. To prove it, you'd have to show the same players acting differently in the absence of Yaya. I.e. the same attacking players working aggressively pressing when Yaya doesn't play.

But like ive already pointed out to you, that eas not the zhe case. As they acted similarly (I.e. failed to pressure even in the game Yaya didn't play.).

Thus, I repeat, you cannot ascribe the lax pressure by our forward line to Yaya. Whether or not you have a video showing Yaya being lazy.

The salient point here is this: we have many players who defend lazily. Yaya is one of them. Perhaps the worst. But others are just as bad. And their error or failure is not on Yaya, like Yaya's is not on them