Player topic : Yaya Toure (2015/16)

[fatbloke]

No. Those examples show Yaya's failures, but not the reasoning of others for failing to do their part.

Besides, you are simply ascribing their hesitation to Yaya, not showing or proving it. To prove it, you'd have to show the same players acting differently in the absence of Yaya. I.e. the same attacking players working aggressively pressing when Yaya doesn't play.

But like ive already pointed out to you, that eas not the zhe case. As they acted similarly (I.e. failed to pressure even in the game Yaya didn't play.).

Thus, I repeat, you cannot ascribe the lax pressure by our forward line to Yaya. Whether or not you have a video showing Yaya being lazy.

The salient point here is this: we have many players who defend lazily. Yaya is one of them. Perhaps the worst. But others are just as bad. And their error or failure is not on Yaya, like Yaya's is not on them

So basically you're saying neither Yaya or anyone else's positional mistakes should affect their teammates positioning or decision making?

And the only way to prove otherwise is to prove your argument which is impossible, haha!!

 

[Dax777]

So basically you're saying neither Yaya or anyone else's positional mistakes should affect their teammates positioning or decision making?

Wrong! Never said that. I said you can't make the claim that it is Yaya's failure to pressure, that is causing the the 'hesitancy' in the others. Understand why that claim is silly. One can equally make the claim, that it's the failure of those players to pressure that has caused Yaya's hesitancy. It is what you call the 'chicken or egg' argument. Which came first.

This is why you need to show that they don't hesitate when Yaya doesn't play. But we already have proof that they don't pressure even when Yaya doesn't play. While that isn't proof Yaya is NOT the cause, it clearly leans towards that conclusion.

Silva, Sterling and Kevin simply don't pressure as an instinctive part of their game normal game. And this is not because of Yaya's presence.

Conversely, Navas, Dihno and Delph all pressure regardless of if they are playing with Yaya or not. Again more proof that it is unlikely that it's Yaya presence that is causing their hesitancy in those that don't.

This my friend, is how you show proof of what you are trying to claim. Not by just just making conclusory statements about a player you seem to already have a bias against.

 

[lasereyes]

Not sure how anyone can credibly argue that Yaya does not diminish our defensive fortitude. He is less mobile, tackles less and wins few balls in the air these days. On the other hand, he still adds very significantly to our strikepower. Still great picker of a killer pass. Still can make the occasional barnstorming run. Still can create magic out of nothing (case in point Swansea). So in my book, what he brings to the table outweighs the deficiencies. The important thing is to exploit his strengths, while patching over his weaknesses. Hence 3 in CM in tough matches.

 

[fatbloke]

Wrong! Never said that. I said you can't make the claim that it is Yaya's failure to pressure, that is causing the the 'hesitancy' in the others. Understand why that claim is silly. One can equally make the claim, that it's the failure of those players to pressure that has caused Yaya's hesitancy. It is what you call the 'chicken or egg' argument. Which came first.

This is why you need to show that they don't hesitate when Yaya doesn't play. But we already have proof that they don't pressure even when Yaya doesn't play. While that isn't proof Yaya is NOT the cause, it clearly leans towards that conclusion.

Silva, Sterling and Kevin simply don't pressure as an instinctive part of their game normal game. And this is not because of Yaya's presence.

Conversely, Navas, Dihno and Delph all pressure regardless of if they are playing with Yaya or not. Again more proof that it is unlikely that it's Yaya presence that is causing their hesitancy in those that don't.

This my friend, is how you show proof of what you are trying to claim. Not by just just making conclusory statements about a player you seem to already have a bias against.

Absolute bollocks.

You're trying to wriggle out of what we can all see in the two examples, the proof is there that Yaya causes hesitation, especially in the Delph/Sigurdsson highlight.

You're saying the only way to prove it is by showing how they press when Yaya isn't there which is impossible because there are so many variables, including everyone else in the team being perfect which we've both agreed isn't possible. If I'd said "Yaya is the one and only cause" then I would understand you asking that question but I haven't. I've said he's the biggest culprit and causes hesitation which he does. Whether anyone else does or doesn't isn't what were talking about and you know it, you just don't want to back down despite the evidence being sugar-coated for you.

 

[mosssideblue]

Not sure how anyone can credibly argue that Yaya does not diminish our defensive fortitude. He is less mobile, tackles less and wins few balls in the air these days. On the other hand, he still adds very significantly to our strikepower. Still great picker of a killer pass. Still can make the occasional barnstorming run. Still can create magic out of nothing (case in point Swansea). So in my book, what he brings to the table outweighs the deficiencies. The important thing is to exploit his strengths, while patching over his weaknesses. Hence 3 in CM in tough matches.

In a roundabout way are you saying we shouldn't play Yaya whilst the back 4 is unsettled? gen question.

 

[Dax777]

Absolute bollocks.

You're trying to wriggle out of what we can all see in the two examples, the proof is there that Yaya causes hesitation, especially in the Delph/Sigurdsson highlight.

You're saying the only way to prove it is by showing how they press when Yaya isn't there which is impossible because there are so many variables, including everyone else in the team being perfect which we've both agreed isn't possible. If I'd said "Yaya is the one and only cause" then I would understand you asking that question but I haven't. I've said he's the biggest culprit and causes hesitation which he does. Whether anyone else does or doesn't isn't what were talking about and you know it, you just don't want to back down despite the evidence being sugar-coated for you.

Stated in your own answer is the problem with your claim. There are other variables. By the way your original claim generalized about others being hesitant, thus suggesting Yaya's presence caused the hesitation. And we are talking about an hesitation to engage in the pressure game.

BTW, There is nothing for me to back down on. You are the one who an uproven claim, I didn't. I'm just pointing out you can't proof it.

For one you really don't know what's going on in the mind of any player, and thus can't attribute his hesitation to another player. That the failure to pressure in itself is even 'hesitation' hasn't been shown.

The player may simply have made the decision not to attack a play. It happens all the time.

For what's its worth, your 2 examples showed what Yaya was not doing.

It DIDN'T show what others were not doing
Nor did it show WHY they didn't do it.
Unless you have a special viewing device that also shows what's going on in the minds of the players around Yaya, I'm certain you don't.

So like I've said, your claim that Yaya makes others hesitate to pressure is just BS.

But feel free to keep arguing against the obvious. :)

 

[lasereyes]

In a roundabout way are you saying we shouldn't play Yaya whilst the back 4 is unsettled? gen question.

Nope, I am countering those who keep claiming we are a better side without Yaya. We are not. We lack creativity and the ability to unlock defences. So you accept his defensive weaknesses and paper over them by playing 3 CMs against strong teams. Which means one of the frontline 4 (Aguero, Silva, Sterling, KDB) would have to be sacrificed.

 

[fatbloke]

Stated in your own answer is the problem with your claim. There are other variables. By the way your original claim generalized about others being hesitant, thus suggesting Yaya's presence caused the hesitation. And we are talking about an hesitation to engage in the pressure game.

BTW, There is nothing for me to back down on. You are the one who an uproven claim, I didn't. I'm just pointing out you can't proof it.

For one you really don't know what's going on in the mind of any player, and thus can't attribute his hesitation to another player. That the failure to pressure in itself is even 'hesitation' hasn't been shown.

The player may simply have made the decision not to attack a play. It happens all the time.

For what's its worth, your 2 examples showed what Yaya was not doing.

It DIDN'T show what others were not doing
Nor did it show WHY they didn't do it.
Unless you have a special viewing device that also shows what's going on in the minds of the players around Yaya, I'm certain you don't.

So like I've said, your claim that Yaya makes others hesitate to pressure is just BS.

But feel free to keep arguing against the obvious. :)

Awww bless, you really don't like being challenged do you. The problem is you can't prove Yaya doesn't cause hesitation in other players, I on the other hand have examples to back my side up. If you don't want to see what's there in front of you, that sir is your problem, not mine.

 

[Dax777]

Awww bless, you really don't like being challenged do you. The problem is you can't prove Yaya doesn't cause hesitation in other players, I on the other hand have examples to back my side up. If you don't want to see what's there in front of you, that sir is your problem, not mine.

I don't have to prove anything. I didn't claim Yaya doesn't cause hesitation, I claimed you couldn't prove it. And you've severally admitted you can't. So I'm at a loss as to what this argument is about.

You trying to saddle the 'Yaya doesn't cause hesitation' on me is a cute but weak switch and bait. I never said Yaya doesn't. I said you claiming 'others hesitate because they know he wouldn't pressure' is false coz you can't prove he does.

My claim here is narrow. Just coz I think you can't prove a claim you made, doesn't mean I think the opposite of that claim is true. It's about your statement here. Like I keep repeating but you pretend not to understand, I have made no claims on the matter outside of stating you can't prove yours.

And you can't. Even you have admitted that 2ice. But I guess your ego is getting in the way of your honesty.

And for what it's what, i like a challenge. This exchange BTW us though, isn't one.

 

[fatbloke]

I don't have to prove anything. I didn't claim Yaya doesn't cause hesitation, I claimed you couldn't prove it. And you've severally admitted you can't. So I'm at a loss as to what this argument is about.

You trying to saddle the 'Yaya doesn't cause hesitation' on me is a cute but weak switch and bait. I never said Yaya doesn't. I said you claiming 'others hesitate because they know he wouldn't pressure' is false coz you can't prove he does.

My claim here is narrow. Just coz I think you can't prove a claim you made, doesn't mean I think the opposite of that claim is true. It's about your statement here. Like I keep repeating but you pretend not to understand, I have made no claims on the matter outside of stating you can't prove yours.

And you can't. Even you have admitted that 2ice. But I guess your ego is getting in the way of your honesty.

And for what it's what, i like a challenge. This exchange BTW us though, isn't one.

Like I said the highlights are there for all to see. If you believe they prove nothing that's your prerogative, I disagree with you.