Political relations between UK-EU

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BobKowalski said:
Sure you can have better planning, but friction is friction, and managing friction will never be as good as eliminating the friction.

What we are trying to do is manage our economy through greater State management and planning, but under a Conservative Govt who will never commit enough resources to make it work anywhere near its optimal level.

But even at optimal levels it will never match the trading environment within the EU bloc meaning our overall industrial performance will degrade in comparison over time.

To compound this we signed a deal that maximises the EU strength in goods and largely neglected our strengths in services.

No one in Govt or even in opposition is going to admit any of this. Failures will be blamed on management of issues or the deal not been good enough or whatever, but no one will ever admit the fundamental flaw, namely that Brexit could never work, that economic and regulatory autonomy is impossible. Instead we will have to pretend that we can make a success of it because to do otherwise will mean admitting we got it wrong and people hate admitting they got it wrong.
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It will never be as friction free as the friction free we had. Thats for sure. The lack of effort around services is stunning.
 
The other great Brexit issue was ‘control’, you want to know what ‘control’ we have right now?

First is pleading with the French and the Irish to be ‘flexible’ in interpreting the new customs rules, but we can only ask, not insist. We no longer have the control that we used to enjoy as members.

Second, and this is where it will end up, what do the EU countries require and how do we make it happen? That’s your control. What do you want and how can we make it happen.

The deal gave the EU the power to control our trade borders. Our need is greater then theirs.

That’s your control.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Just briefly (as possible).........

I can see no evidence that at any point in time or in any aspect/sector/etc. has there been any trace of what would be remotely considered good practice in the way Brexit has been managed - absolute shambles, which is something I have been saying since 2016

That is my view of the UK side - I have frequently expressed my admiration for the EU's approach/team

This was true during Cameron's term - there should have been impact assessments/options appraisal undertaken before the referendum - to inform the public

This was absolutely true during May's leadership - I could make a long list of the lack of professional management during her term. I know that there was commencement of levels of 'proper management of projects' in Spring/Summer 2018 - because I was asked by the CO (who run such matters across government) to be part of a small group to head up reviews of the the status/progress of those preparations for Brexit - that was far too late

It was also largely true of Johnson's term as well - there is little evidence of the portfolio of projects, all being coordinated as @Saddleworth2 described, to address the plethora of impacts that will affect the UK. The number of projects, within a change programme, that should have been in place across Defra alone would be significant - and there was no sign.

In the summer of 2018 a penny must have dropped - since then 'highly regarded staff' across all areas of the Civil Service have been redeployed 'onto Brexit' - but that is just fire-fighting and is absolutely not the management of projects/workstreams as determined by understanding the TOM for e.g. a sector

I freely admit that, against all odds, the outcome is a Brexit akin to what that I believe the UK needs - there is fuck all chance that it is an/the option that would have made the short-list had things 'been done properly'

Bob and others are set to have some fun, at the UK's expense, for months because the lack of such management must mean that literally 1000s of things that could have been identified and a resolution/policy/mitigation determined are going to emerge

That is me acknowledging the incompetence of our government in managing Brexit - not regretting the Brexit that has been achieved because of that incompetence
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Appreciate that.
And without having the same sort of experience either yourself or @Saddleworth2 would have, I still have enough experience at business level in change management procedure through my operational and IT support roles through the years and business case budget approval in my latter years.

I suspected all along that it was as haphazard as you imply and also that although you probably think that was a huge bonus for the EU side, I think it was also a source of enormous frustration.
I think the Irish government tried to use very diplomatic language at all times, but not only was it causing frustration but perhaps mistrust also. Maybe that’s just my perception of it. I could be projecting that.

There will be problems as everyone including yourself are saying and there will be negotiations for years, I feel, but that’s diplomacy anyway.

There will be consequences though that I know you have considered worth your own vision of an end game. You’ve said so all along.

We can see it here already with measures being planned for by many companies to bypass Britain.
The same will happen on the continent I’m sure.

It is what it is and we will all get on with it.
Hard to judge anything at the moment with Covid. Wait until things get back to some semblance of normal.
 
BobKowalski said:
Sure you can have better planning, but friction is friction, and managing friction will never be as good as eliminating the friction.

What we are trying to do is manage our economy through greater State management and planning, but under a Conservative Govt who will never commit enough resources to make it work anywhere near its optimal level.

But even at optimal levels it will never match the trading environment within the EU bloc meaning our overall industrial performance will degrade in comparison over time.

To compound this we signed a deal that maximises the EU strength in goods and largely neglected our strengths in services.

No one in Govt or even in opposition is going to admit any of this. Failures will be blamed on management of issues or the deal not been good enough or whatever, but no one will ever admit the fundamental flaw, namely that Brexit could never work, that economic and regulatory autonomy is impossible. Instead we will have to pretend that we can make a success of it because to do otherwise will mean admitting we got it wrong and people hate admitting they got it wrong.
Click to expand...

Friction is friction thats why it will mean
The EU and us will along so awkwardly
 
mcfc1632 said:
Just briefly (as possible).........

I can see no evidence that at any point in time or in any aspect/sector/etc. has there been any trace of what would be remotely considered good practice in the way Brexit has been managed - absolute shambles, which is something I have been saying since 2016

That is my view of the UK side - I have frequently expressed my admiration for the EU's approach/team

This was true during Cameron's term - there should have been impact assessments/options appraisal undertaken before the referendum - to inform the public

This was absolutely true during May's leadership - I could make a long list of the lack of professional management during her term. I know that there was commencement of levels of 'proper management of projects' in Spring/Summer 2018 - because I was asked by the CO (who run such matters across government) to be part of a small group to head up reviews of the the status/progress of those preparations for Brexit - that was far too late

It was also largely true of Johnson's term as well - there is little evidence of the portfolio of projects, all being coordinated as @Saddleworth2 described, to address the plethora of impacts that will affect the UK. The number of projects, within a change programme, that should have been in place across Defra alone would be significant - and there was no sign.

In the summer of 2018 a penny must have dropped - since then 'highly regarded staff' across all areas of the Civil Service have been redeployed 'onto Brexit' - but that is just fire-fighting and is absolutely not the management of projects/workstreams as determined by understanding the TOM for e.g. a sector

I freely admit that, against all odds, the outcome is a Brexit akin to what that I believe the UK needs - there is fuck all chance that it is an/the option that would have made the short-list had things 'been done properly'

Bob and others are set to have some fun, at the UK's expense, for months because the lack of such management must mean that literally 1000s of things that could have been identified and a resolution/policy/mitigation determined are going to emerge

That is me acknowledging the incompetence of our government in managing Brexit - not regretting the Brexit that has been achieved because of that incompetence
Click to expand...

You have omitted to make mention of your fulsome and effusive praise of Frosty the Showman describing him and his team a group of hard nosed professional negotiators in there batting for Britain so we got a great deal - so what went wrong? Were you a bit too quick to laud the Lord?
 
bluethrunthru said:
You have omitted to make mention of your fulsome and effusive praise of Frosty the Showman describing him and his team a group of hard nosed professional negotiators in there batting for Britain so we got a great deal - so what went wrong? Were you a bit too quick to laud the Lord?
Click to expand...
You're talking to an Irish fella about Brits. Arethebritsatitagain.com
 
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