Political relations between UK-EU

Rascal said:
You like your "hards" don't you. I assume then you also see Democratic Socialism as "hard" left, if so where is Communism on your scale of "hard" or are you just using hard as a comparison to liberal left?
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The Labour tradition that harked back to the road to socialism with a reliance on Marxist-leninism was the hard left. I'm using it to distinguish it from the soft left but it's also accepted terminology, even by those within that tradition. I actually think Corbyn was neither as left wing as he thought he was,or his detractors claimed he was. The policies of the party were more akin to a European style social democrats. Corbyn's social views set him out as socially liberal, he was progressive on things like lgbt rights in 1970s, supports buffer zones around abortion clinics and wants to decriminalise cannabis.

I was in favour of Corbyn becoming Leader and a supporter of his during his leadership. I'm also an admirer of Mcdonnell and thought he would have made a better more competent leader. Unfortunately he had said silly stuff in the past about Thatcher and Bobby Sands at fringe meetings and damaged his personal brand. He would have got even more abuse than Corbyn by the press.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/01/labour-leadership-contest-new-factions

If you don't like the hard left term perhaps orthodox left is acceptable to you.

Although I'm not convinced that if Benn was alive today and still at the heart of politics that he wouldn't be more a part of the radical left instead.

There were genuine concerns but these more about issues that were primarily consequences of long-term wider structural economic problems. The Brexiteers railing against immigration are a majority in both Southern market towns and Northern former mining towns, there is also greater anti immigrant sentiment in places with less immigrants.

You don't address legitimate grievances that target the wrong issue as the cause by accepting these arguments and sympathising with it in your policies knowing it is wrong.

Boris Johnson openly admitted that he used to the opening line "Britain stood alone" in his Telegraph myth based reports from Brussels. It is sheer delusion on the basis of people like Labour Leave to get into bed with this argument and think that these people will be supporters of Socialism in the future.

I would never tell you that don't belong in the Labour Party. I wouldn't say it to the hardline communists unless there was something deeply unpleasant about their politics and tactics.

But I'm firmly of the view that the hardline element of the Orthodox Left should not ever have a position in the party disproportionate to their numbers and support in wider circles.If that were to happen it would only be as a result of a failure of the Radical, Soft and so called moderates on the right of the party to provide a coherent platform. Labour needs to be the heart of a progressive coalition (with support from Liberal and Greens) led by the Soft-Left.

We should perhaps move the discussion to another thread though mate, as we have moved away from the issue of UK-EU relations.



Rascal said:
I don't think Corbyn was a good leader but he did move the Overton window leftwards in the Labour party and the country to some extent, which sadly Keith is now moving back to the centre, so in my mind he was a necessary leader at the right time as Labour had become Tory lite and now are moving back to Tory lite. As Tony Benn was fond of imitating the further right the Labour party get the more comfortable capitalists become with it as they can use the Labour party to shake up the Tories and move them rightwards.

Labour leave is not that distinct from RW leave, but the endgame is very different. That is why i am willing to swallow to RW leave for the time being because of the possibilities arising. What the Liberal left failed to see was that the people of this country didn't want immigration, yes it was embellished by Farage to the point of ridiculousness but there were genuine concerns and it is no surprise that the red wall fell as a result. Traditional old Labour is small C conservative, it is patriotic, but the Liberal left forgot all that all or dismissed it as unimportant.

Orwell wrote

‘England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings.’

Old Labour values are patriotic, the liberal left denied the patriotism of the working class. Emily Thornberry with her white van man incident probably did as much to enable brexit in that one instance than any other politician. You saw the Pro-EU rallies in London and the working class didn't identify with them at all.

As much as Brexit was about immigration, it was also about identity. Fintan O'Toole is brilliant on this in his book "heroic failure" England rather than Wales and Scotland was suffering an identity crisis, it s place in the world was in question and brexit was a reaffirmation of England as being a country that stood alone. This is incredibly powerful imagery in a country that has some sort of strange obsession with WW2 and Nazism. Standing alone against the EU became WW2 reimagined, you saw the analogies in the media right up to the day we left and they will continue because they appeal to a sense of working class identity. Labour leave gets this, its based in the working class not the liberal left so it had to appeal to the same people RW leave appealed to. It was never going to win over the liberal left, because as Orwell writes above. Freedom of movement to the Liberal left meant visiting their holiday home in the Languedoc, Freedom of movement to the working class was Lithuanians taking over their corner shop.

I agree the EU was more than a neo-liberal project, but it has many good points, but it has major failings too. If you live in a town that feels remote from London, then that remoteness is exaggerated when it comes to Brussels. Of course the RW propaganda played on that and exaggerated it further with nonsensical claims and downright lies. Many of them from the pen of Johnson himself.

Remain though was not the way to get back at this brextremists, leaving and then turning it on its head and pushing for a Socialist country would be the best way to ram all those lies down the throats of the ERG and the likes.
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NI Select Committee banging one about trade falling off a cliff because hauliers aren’t moving....wider, but similar take in the Guardian. ‘Absolute carnage': EU hauliers reject UK jobs over Brexit rules . Hauliers didn't realise they needed to provide cash guarantees for duties and goods to trade‘

www.theguardian.com

'Absolute carnage': EU hauliers reject UK jobs over Brexit rules

Freight company director blames new requirement for EU transport firms to provide VAT and tariff guarantees
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
NI Sec says announcement "in next couple of days" on NI protocol after Paisley (DUP) stating: "A lot of these companies will not be left standing by the end of these this month. They're laying people off today. The co can't wait for 3 months to see how bad this is just awful. Pls fix it"

Govt money on its way the likeliest immediate outcome.
 
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...son-brexit-deal-european-defence-fund-horizon
Don't really know where to start with this one. Is it more comical that the Express is complaining about a "hidden clause" or the fact that we may be paying towards the "EU Army" that leaving was supposed to get us away from. Anyway I'm wondering where the clause was hidden? Or was it another page of the agreement that our ace negotiators forgot to read.
 
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