Political relations between UK-EU

[WRicko]

As a strong remainer rejoiner / support of Braintry

I am both extra optimistic about about what has been said about our new current deal deals short comings and extra depressed by it

It’s clear that it’s a rubbish deal which will be changed and improved over time in fact much sooner than I expected which will take us back towards the EU on many issues notably Education, security, foreign policy, data protection, fighting crime and services and probably climate change and other issues. This will reduce the need to rejoin but will result in increased loss of sovereignty and increased demand to rejoin so as to have more say more democracy and more sovereignty This is why leaving was even worse than I expected. Basically have the chief advocate of the deal confirm it was a deal with big gaps and there would be years more of what we have just had added insult and injury to the existing loss even if it was what I expected all along it’s made tho whole thing seem instantly even more pointless than I thought

 

[WRicko]

I don't make government policy so I don't know what the vision is (but I'm pretty sure it won't be Rascal's). It will be what we make it, for better or worse. But the thing is we're not tied to a hopelessly unrealistic vision of a federal Europe, with a single currency that suits only one country. We won't have the European Central Bank telling us how much tax we have to raise and how much money we can spend, who we can be friends with and who we can and can't trade with. That's why I voted the way I did, having been pro-Common Market but anti-EU, by which I mean the post Lisbon/Maastricht EU.

Had, hypothetically, we got this agreement before holding a referendum, it would be interesting to see whether the leave vote would have been higher or lower but we'll never know.

A guy I used to work with spent two years living in a caravan with his family while his house, which was old and had numerous problems, was effectively demolished and rebuilt. I see that as an analogy for where we are now. We've just moved into the caravan with all the disadvantages that entails but with a chance to shape the future. Change is always testing but people adapt.

The European Central bank does not tell us how much to spend or tax though does it and we where never going to join the Euro unfortunately

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The European Central bank does not tell us how much to spend or tax though does it and we where never going to join the Euro unfortunately

No it doesn't. But that's the plan. It's in the Five Presidents documents and one of the key ways to make the Euro work properly.

European Commission

European Commission - Policies, information and services

ec.europa.eu

The ECB will tell each country how much to raise (but not how to raise it). They'll also tell them them how much they can spend, but not necessarily how to spend it.

 

[WRicko]

Really well said - shame that you were not more visible on the other threads.

I have said a few times recently that I feel (in a sense) like we have re-joined the Common market - a European trading bloc.

We want nothing to do with the federalist model that is now actually inevitable - so being cleanly out of the EU we can determine our own priorities and strategies.

The benefits of being out of the CAP will be significant

A lot to be happy about - and not least that - now the deed is done - surely all UK citizens and posters on BM, just get over it and plan to make a success of Brexit.

Our deal is a million miles from the Common Market and significantly worse than that of what was the Common Market

The Common Market was the Customs Union the begging of Single Market We have left both and it also included The Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fishing Policy though u might argue they could be or should be separate they where certainly less important and liked. All these areas where actually improved over the years Customs Union did more trade deals Single Market expanded Common Agricultural Policy was improved gone are the grain mountains etc Fish stocks have increased gone is discard etc Yet people say they supporter the Common Market but not the EU madness especially when we had opt outs of the so much people worried about

 

[WRicko]

No one stopping anyone travelling. You can go anywhere in the EU for 90 days in any 180 days. If I want to go to the USA to see my lad, I fill in a Visa Waiver form, pay a few quid and it's approved virtually instantly, lasting me for 2 years. It's not really a hardship. When we played in Moscow, plenty on here got visas.

The issue I have with free movement is economic, not because I don't like foreigners. It's pretty well the same argument Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz uses in his book on the Euro, though he puts it much more academically rigorously than I do. It's the same principal as in chemical osmosis, when you have two solutions of different density and a porous boundary. The higher density solution migrates to the lower density one until equlibirium is achieved.

People from poorer countries naturally gravitate to richer ones, as we've seen with the influx of Eastern European people from Poland and Romania. Yes, many of them contribute to our economy but they also consume resources, such as accomodation and medical services, which are finite and difficult to scale quickly. The more skilled they are (doctors, engineers, etc) the more they earn in the richer country, which is skills they deprie their home country of, as well as the tax revenue they could have contributed at home.

So the poor countries get propped up financially by those richer ones, as we've seen with the net flow of EU funds from countries like us and Germany to the likes of Poland & Romania. So it's just swings and roundabouts really. If the EU was a level-playing field, with wage levels, tax levels, opportunities & infrastructure all similar across the community, then free movement would be no issue economically. But like those chemical solutions, it isn't. There is no equilibrium. What's the incentive for countries to develop and increase their skills base if those skilled younger people just fuck off somewhere else when it suits them?

So of course people in the UK see free movement of people as a good thing because we essentially attract lots of cheap labour. But that cheap labour here isn't a good thing for the countries the workers have come from. It's one of those great liberal ideas which is the effective replacement for colonialism, except we're taking the skills from these countries rather than the raw materials.

Your economics is flawed Free movement is a net benefit to the UK I don’t think you realize how intelligent hardworking or well paid the average EU citizen in the UK is

 

[WRicko]

No it doesn't. But that's the plan. It's in the Five Presidents documents and one of the key ways to make the Euro work properly.

European Commission

European Commission - Policies, information and services

ec.europa.eu

The ECB will tell each country how much to raise (but not how to raise it). They'll also tell them them how much they can spend, but not necessarily how to spend it.

I must have missed the bit where we joined the Euro did that happen briefly at some point after the referendum to leave ?

 

[WRicko]

indeed. So you can have a roof over your head with a house built for you already being on this land, with locks on your doors to keep out whoever you don't want in your house.

But the UK has to have free movement of people and let in whoever wants to come, let them take houses built for people already here and do what they want because it's better that way, we can't have restrictions on who goes where we just have to accept it blindly because it's a "benefit".

First off it’s not blindly accepting it as a benefit it is as demonstrably a benefit

Second you should have read the restrictions on free movement before voting to leave

Anyone can be deported after 6 months if they do not have a job or study or means of supporting themselves and medical insurance

 

[WRicko]

And they’re not in the single market either which is the reason they’ve had that inward investment rather than those even lower cost places further afield.

The single market increases investment so I disagree with the point I think your trying to make not that you can compare any EU country or Britain with those countries

 

[Ban-jani]

Your economics is flawed Free movement is a net benefit to the UK I don’t think you realize how intelligent hardworking or well paid the average EU citizen in the UK is

It depends how you measure benefit.

There are other qualities to life than GDP going up.

Nobody making the argument about FoM, and it’s my biggest criticism of the EU, as a remain voter, is saying that EU migrants don’t work hard and pay more than they take out.

That isn’t the issue, the issue is the pressure on infrastructure and communities changing culturally, through mass immigration.

 

[west didsblue]

The single market increases investment so I disagree with the point I think your trying to make not that you can compare any EU country or Britain with those countries

I agree with you. I probably worded my post in a way that it could have been misinterpreted.