Political relations between UK-EU

[mancity2012_eamo]

Haven’t dropped in for a while, but my interest was tweaked by another thread started in jest that was a bit like a Bluemoon version of Brexit that said things were heated in here.

A genuine question to all sides in this debate.
Are things as noticeably worse or deteriorating as a result of Brexit as is seemingly being agreed in here.
I get the feeling reading in here that there seems to be agreement that this has not been a good experience for Britain and it is getting worse. There does however seem to be disagreement as to why this is.

Am I getting this right? Not just the folk in here, but in general in Britain, are folk as unhappy with the outcome as the impression being displayed in here.

Here in Ireland, we have seen some disruption but it’s very hard to pinpoint what exactly is due to COVID and what is down to Brexit.

I know I’ve been trying to get a bit of work done on a sunroom for the back garden. Initially I started in March this year and definitely COVID-19 hampered me. Eventually agreed a price with a company for a product that needs to be manufactured in Holland and shipped here for construction and I’m being told that the Dutch company have advised that they cannot say when the could supply. Definitely wouldn’t be this year.
I’m thinking the problem is the supply chain for the steel involved. I’m really not sure. My sister has been let down three times by a window company for similar reasons.

I really don’t know if this is Brexit related or consequences of it, but regarding stocks in the shops, we haven’t noticed any great problems. A change of brand here and there, but nothing major.

Are things as bad over there as is being implied?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Haven’t dropped in for a while, but my interest was tweaked by another thread started in jest that was a bit like a Bluemoon version of Brexit that said things were heated in here.

A genuine question to all sides in this debate.
Are things as noticeably worse or deteriorating as a result of Brexit as is seemingly being agreed in here.
I get the feeling reading in here that there seems to be agreement that this has not been a good experience for Britain and it is getting worse. There does however seem to be disagreement as to why this is.

Am I getting this right? Not just the folk in here, but in general in Britain, are folk as unhappy with the outcome as the impression being displayed in here.

Here in Ireland, we have seen some disruption but it’s very hard to pinpoint what exactly is due to COVID and what is down to Brexit.

I know I’ve been trying to get a bit of work done on a sunroom for the back garden. Initially I started in March this year and definitely COVID-19 hampered me. Eventually agreed a price with a company for a product that needs to be manufactured in Holland and shipped here for construction and I’m being told that the Dutch company have advised that they cannot say when the could supply. Definitely wouldn’t be this year.
I’m thinking the problem is the supply chain for the steel involved. I’m really not sure. My sister has been let down three times by a window company for similar reasons.

I really don’t know if this is Brexit related or consequences of it, but regarding stocks in the shops, we haven’t noticed any great problems. A change of brand here and there, but nothing major.

Are things as bad over there as is being implied?

Hi Mate, patchy in my experience. You see supermarket pictures of empty shelves but i havent experienced that. What I have noticed are three things in terms of provisions 1) the brand choice is more limited 2) stuff that used to come from EU now comes from far flung lands (chile for my pink lady apples) which obviously has environmental implications 3) sporadic shortages of fresh veg and fruits. Its difficult to say the cause. I suspect from what I read its mainly brexit related rather than covid but cant be certain of that. Anecdotally I have friends that have been effected more directly through labour shortages that are certainly Brexit related. The overwhelming feeling though which is personal is an overwhelming feeling of depression that is still a hangover from the actual deed. I saw that Hilary Mantel our esteemed author saying the other day that she was so ashamed of Britain she would be moving to Ireland and taking up Irish citizenship. She is not alone in feeling that.

 

[Octavian]

Ok mate, you gave as good as you got so best not to be too sensitive.

The argument seems to boil down to three simple positions:

1) be a full blown member of the EU (the position) we had
2) be a member of the single market (but as you say Brussel dictates the trading standards)
3) be outside all of it and make up our own rules (although the reality is we will end up copying and pasting the EU rules) with all that comes with it when it comes to trading with our closest and biggest trade partner.

1. Is best 2. as you point out is imperfect but the question is, is it better than 3?
My view, yes. Almost certainly. You may reasonably have a different view.

I am assuming that you are not a re-incarnation of some of the characters we had on here in the past. If you had inhabited this thread over the last few years you would understand why it is pretty polarised. It is an extremely emotive subject for many. It is possible to have a decent debate and to disagree and still be civil but its best to tread a little more lightly and to be very specific in your posts. That lessens the chance of misunderstandings.
Have a good one mate.

I don’t understand why every post I make I get a really arsey response back, some of it borderline abusive.

If people are upset about Brexit, which I understand especially if this page has been going on 6 years has it?? I haven’t even made the case for it so no idea why people are taking it out on me.

I’ll give it back though no problem but I’d rather just have a calm chat.

The only case I made was, using your numbers there, 2) is a crap scenario that even prominent politicians
/ex politicians in Norway advised against, they’ve tried to convince their population to go for full membership but cannot get them to back it.

I would hate to see us go down the same route and ultimately think sucking up option 3) and struggling with it is better, even if it makes us economically worse off.

I voted for option 1) though, so people need to calm down.

And @west didsblue it’s not irrelevant now, Labour or another party could very well campaign on an EFTA membership manifesto.It’s very much a possibility.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I don’t understand why every post I make I get a really arsey response back, some of it borderline abusive.

If people are upset about Brexit, which I understand especially if this page has been going on 6 years has it?? I haven’t even made the case for it so no idea why people are taking it out on me.

I’ll give it back though no problem but I’d rather just have a calm chat.

The only case I made was, using your numbers there, 2) is a crap scenario that even prominent politicians
/ex politicians in Norway advised against, they’ve tried to convince their population to go for full membership but cannot get them to back it.

I would hate to see us go down the same route and ultimately think sucking up option 3) and struggling with it is better, even if it makes us economically worse off.

I voted for option 1) though, so people need to calm down.

And @west didsblue it’s not irrelevant now, Labour or another party could very well campaign on an EFTA membership manifesto.It’s very much a possibility.

My post wasn’t arsey in the slightest. Are we not having a calm chat? You think membership of the SM would be worse than what we have just now. I don’t agree but am not critical of you holding that view. We cannot put the genie back in the bottle. Anyway at least we Scots have a slim chance of getting membership back through independence. The English are stuck with it and the Tories for the foreseeable.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I don’t understand why every post I make I get a really arsey response back, some of it borderline abusive.

If people are upset about Brexit, which I understand especially if this page has been going on 6 years has it?? I haven’t even made the case for it so no idea why people are taking it out on me.

I’ll give it back though no problem but I’d rather just have a calm chat.

The only case I made was, using your numbers there, 2) is a crap scenario that even prominent politicians
/ex politicians in Norway advised against, they’ve tried to convince their population to go for full membership but cannot get them to back it.

I would hate to see us go down the same route and ultimately think sucking up option 3) and struggling with it is better, even if it makes us economically worse off.

I voted for option 1) though, so people need to calm down.

And @west didsblue it’s not irrelevant now, Labour or another party could very well campaign on an EFTA membership manifesto.It’s very much a possibility.

Interesting.
So would it be safe to say, that even amongst the remain vote that one of the consequences of Brexit (or how it is being managed), is a more divided Britain?

It is looking likely that your government are going to look for a further extension, that surely is not a sustainable policy into the future.

What is the opinion in here (open to all) of where this is likely to leave the UK in another 5 years?

 

[BobKowalski]

I don’t understand why every post I make I get a really arsey response back, some of it borderline abusive.

If people are upset about Brexit, which I understand especially if this page has been going on 6 years has it?? I haven’t even made the case for it so no idea why people are taking it out on me.

I’ll give it back though no problem but I’d rather just have a calm chat.

The only case I made was, using your numbers there, 2) is a crap scenario that even prominent politicians
/ex politicians in Norway advised against, they’ve tried to convince their population to go for full membership but cannot get them to back it.

I would hate to see us go down the same route and ultimately think sucking up option 3) and struggling with it is better, even if it makes us economically worse off.

I voted for option 1) though, so people need to calm down.

And @west didsblue it’s not irrelevant now, Labour or another party could very well campaign on an EFTA membership manifesto.It’s very much a possibility.

Brexit was sold as making us economically better off, not worse off. Option 3 isn't viable. Cheaper food, cheaper clothes, free of EU rules, more money for the NHS etc, etc.

No one voted for shortages or higher prices. People will try and sell it as ‘plucky Britain defies EU’ or ‘at least we aren't starving’, but that wasn't how it was sold.

As for taking control, well we don't control the customs border between NI and GB. We don't control our customs border between the EU and GB as we don't have the manpower or infrastructure and the Home Sec is threatening not to pay the French the money we promised because the number of refugee channel crossings hit a record high this week. The Clandestine Channel Commander is very cross with the French. Our failure ‘to take control’ is very on point at the moment.

 

[Octavian]

My post wasn’t arsey in the slightest. Are we not having a calm chat? You think membership of the SM would be worse than what we have just now. I don’t agree but am not critical of you holding that view. We cannot put the genie back in the bottle. Anyway at least we Scots have a slim chance of getting membership back through independence. The English are stuck with it and the Tories for the foreseeable.

Yours wasn’t particularly bad but there was a slight tone and it came after 3 abusive posts so got thrown in with them.

I am more than happy to have a calm conversation.

I understand it sounds daft, it’s not logically sound for the economy but the idea of the UK not being in the driving seat of its own trade arrangements doesn’t sit well with me. The economic impacts of Brexit don’t outweigh that for me.

I’d rather have just remained though.

I thought you were a local to me, in Saddleworth? I’m Oldham based and have played at Saddleworth golf club a few times, decent but very hilly and old man’s legs have gone.

Did you move?

I think the Scots will go and then NI to be honest, I happen to think it’s politically the most sensible thing as the division and hatred is too heated in the UK, it’s fractured and goes well beyond disliking Tories.

 

[Octavian]

Interesting.
So would it be safe to say, that even amongst the remain vote that one of the consequences of Brexit (or how it is being managed), is a more divided Britain?

It is looking likely that your government are going to look for a further extension, that surely is not a sustainable policy into the future.

What is the opinion in here (open to all) of where this is likely to leave the UK in another 5 years?

There won’t be a UK in 5 years.

The kingdom of England with Wales as a principality is most likely. Scotland and NI will go and Ireland will reunify.

The thing is I think Scotland may come back with its tail between its legs as EU membership doesn’t happen overnight and Scotland’s economy could really suffer.

Who knows though, that’s just a hunch.

 

[Octavian]

Brexit was sold as making us economically better off, not worse off. Option 3 isn't viable. Cheaper food, cheaper clothes, free of EU rules, more money for the NHS etc, etc.

Literally my original point on this thread before the Didsbury massive kicked off was the argument leave should have made, if they were being honest was… the economy and trade will be negatively impacted and it will be a struggle, but we think it’s worth it for power to be returned to London from Brussels.

The trouble is, leave, remain and those of us who kept quiet in 2016, didn’t have a scooby do what was going on or even how to argue their own corner.

That’s why you had leave saying the bull shit that it’ll be absolutely brilliant and remain saying it’ll be worse than it actually has been. It was a shouting match.

 

[BobKowalski]

Interesting.
So would it be safe to say, that even amongst the remain vote that one of the consequences of Brexit (or how it is being managed), is a more divided Britain?

It is looking likely that your government are going to look for a further extension, that surely is not a sustainable policy into the future.

What is the opinion in here (open to all) of where this is likely to leave the UK in another 5 years?

We can’t keep postponing implementation of full GB border controls with the EU, but the reality of doing so is not palatable either. Brexit was not meant to pan out like this. Brexit was meant to give us the ability to trade at zero cost with the EU with maximum benefit. The only way this ends is a gradual drift back to EU rules and standards over the years. But this cannot be admitted or said out loud.

The situation between GB and NI is more delicate and I think it suits both parties to keep punting this into the long grass. For Dublin/EU it’s a long game. The threat of possible full protocol implementation will drive a restructuring of NI trade toward RoI/EU and away from GB. Better playing it softly than picking a fight over sausages which the UK Govt would love.