Political relations between UK-EU

[BobKowalski]

I mean a the evidence you offer that TTIPs was dead all occurred after the Brexit vote.

Curiously if the deal has obviously been dead since 2015 or before why did both sides continue to meet to discuss said dead deal? Clearly there were challenges with the deal but that’s largely true of any trade deal else they’d just be one meeting where they agree everything and sign on the dotted line wouldn’t there?

You do know the EU and US have kicked off discussion again don’t you? You know post-Trump. So that little hope that you think has long gone, hasn’t at all.

My reasoning for my vote still sits very well with me and your attempts with trying to prove otherwise are making you look a bit silly. Probably best to just leave it there rather than going round in circles with you rewriting history.

Your reasoning never made sense. You still haven’t squared how a post Brexit UK which is desperate for a US trade deal is better positioned to avoid a trade dicking from the US than a UK tied into the EU.

One of the central planks of Brexit was the ability to do a trade deal with the US. You reckoned we weren’t going to get raped over that? Bizarre. I mean, we got screwed by the TCA with the EU, so fuck knows what the Yanks would get. Even the Aussies pulled our pants down.

 

[BobKowalski]

More great Brexit news, but thank god we sidestepped the TTIP deal that never happened.

‘EU Blocks UK from Horizon Research Scheme‘

UK shut out of Horizon research scheme because EU doesn't 'trust' British Government

British access to £77bn programme was agreed during Brexit bartering but rows over Northern Ireland Protocol have delayed membership

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Vic]

....

You do know the EU and US have kicked off discussion again don’t you? You know post-Trump. So that little hope that you think has long gone, hasn’t at all.
...

What discussion? Not for anything like TTIP.

 

[lloydie]

I did, closely - right up until the Brexit vote and then largely stopped caring. Are you trying to rewrite history here?

TTIPs was alive and kicking when the Brexit referendum was given to us and there was no Trump being mr protectionist. EU leaders were still very much backing TTIPs before Brexit. It was only a couple of months later the wheels started to really fall off with senior ministers publicly talking about failure, but still their leaders backed it, eventually falling to Trump to sign its death certificate. It wasn’t the EU who said, fuck this it’s nonsense.

TTIPs had been mired in secrecy and demands for more transparency, court cases and so on. The EU tried their level best to push TTIPs upon us and went as far as saying we couldn’t stop laws being made in response to such criticism - they over reached and didn’t give a fuck, and the fact they even thought some parts of TTIPs were a good enough idea in the first place to write them down should put the fear of god into anyone. There was a strong desire to try and get TTIPs over the line by the end of Obama’s term in 2016 - however Brexit took the wind out of those particular sails given the UK accounted for 25% of US exports to the bloc. That’s not to say TTIPs wouldn’t have been “worth” doing or even possible with a remain vote, but it did hit the impetus and what happened next? Oh ministers coming out and saying it looks like it might fail.

The failure of TTIPs and Brexit severely damaged the EUs reputation globally. They won’t be caught like that again and have already this year made moves to remove member states ability to reject certain parts of trade agreements, and they are revisiting TIPPs although it’s called something else now… first port of call? Regulatory alignment… wasn’t that the whole furore around hormone in beef and chlorinated chicken? The EU need trade agreements for growth, and none come bigger than an EU-US agreement.

fuckoff with the rewrite nonsense...

Protest never changes anything? Look at how TTIP has been derailed | Owen Jones

People power has taken on big business over this transatlantic stitch-up and looks like winning. We should all be inspired

www.theguardian.com

Mass protest against TTIP and CETA to take place in Berlin

More than 30 organisations are teaming up for a major demonstration against TTIP and CETA, with concerns ranging from the end of cultural diversity in Europe to devastating effects the deals could have in developing countries. EURACTIV Germany reports.

www.euractiv.com

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Just heard the scientists, take their advice above the government ‘data’.

Merry Christmas, Blues. Stay safe.

 

[metalblue]

fuckoff with the rewrite nonsense...

Protest never changes anything? Look at how TTIP has been derailed | Owen Jones

People power has taken on big business over this transatlantic stitch-up and looks like winning. We should all be inspired

www.theguardian.com

Mass protest against TTIP and CETA to take place in Berlin

More than 30 organisations are teaming up for a major demonstration against TTIP and CETA, with concerns ranging from the end of cultural diversity in Europe to devastating effects the deals could have in developing countries. EURACTIV Germany reports.

www.euractiv.com

Protests, yay. They’d been running for a good year and more. Still the politicians pressed on to TTIPs. Trump pulled the plug, and it wasn’t until 2019 that the EU declared TTIPs obsolete. They wanted it, protests or not.

The protests weren’t entirely ineffective, they created noise and discussion particularly finding their voice in Germany with the rather brilliant Thilo Bode but we’re largely dismissed by the political classes - in particular the EU whom were even more removed from the protests with no public audience to play to. What was it the EU trade commissioner De Gucht said about the protests? Something about so you’ve collected a few hundred thousands people but we negotiate on behalf of 500 million. The Stop TTIP initiative had 3 million signatures on a petition calling for the EU to scrap it, but the EU said it’s down to them to make the laws. Although I think there was a little bit more transparency from the EU after that petition.

There was a shift in German public opinion (it went from something like 75% support to 45% support by 2016 and that comment by the EU trade commissioner is widely seen as doing more to enrage German public opinion then anything else as it came across as dismissive. Much of the narrative was still about “the public just simply don’t understand TTIPs”.

You knowingly wanted to stay in a system that tried to inflict that on its people, initially without any transparency (I wonder why), because you believed that the protests would work against a political system that was still saying it wanted it. I didn’t.

I still hate the fact they even tried and it stopped because Trump pulled the plug although it had stalled by then, but then again how many times did the Brexit negotiations “stall”? I even seem to recall there were protests about Brexit.

 

[metalblue]

What discussion? Not for anything like TTIP.

They’re not that stupid to go for an all encompassing agreement like TTIPs out of the blocks. This is trade and tech, should watch the wording on any regulatory alignment part.

They’ve deliberately avoided the most contentious topics like ISDS for now. They’ve not even mentioned tariffs or market access yet and have agreed to have worker representation on both sides. Let’s see how it evolves, because evolve it will.

 

[west didsblue]

Protests, yay. They’d been running for a good year and more. Still the politicians pressed on to TTIPs. Trump pulled the plug, and it wasn’t until 2019 that the EU declared TTIPs obsolete. They wanted it, protests or not.

The protests weren’t entirely ineffective, they created noise and discussion particularly finding their voice in Germany with the rather brilliant Thilo Bode but we’re largely dismissed by the political classes - in particular the EU whom were even more removed from the protests with no public audience to play to. What was it the EU trade commissioner De Gucht said about the protests? Something about so you’ve collected a few hundred thousands people but we negotiate on behalf of 500 million. The Stop TTIP initiative had 3 million signatures on a petition calling for the EU to scrap it, but the EU said it’s down to them to make the laws. Although I think there was a little bit more transparency from the EU after that petition.

There was a shift in German public opinion (it went from something like 75% support to 45% support by 2016 and that comment by the EU trade commissioner is widely seen as doing more to enrage German public opinion then anything else as it came across as dismissive. Much of the narrative was still about “the public just simply don’t understand TTIPs”.

You knowingly wanted to stay in a system that tried to inflict that on its people, initially without any transparency (I wonder why), because you believed that the protests would work against a political system that was still saying it wanted it. I didn’t.

I still hate the fact they even tried and it stopped because Trump pulled the plug although it had stalled by then, but then again how many times did the Brexit negotiations “stall”? I even seem to recall there were protests about Brexit.

Even if all the above was accurate (it isn't), it doesn't change the fact that by us being out of the EU we are so desperate for a trade deal we would sign up to literally anything the US would put to us. However thanks to the unfathomably idiotic way we are trying to unilaterally re-write the NIP we are currently too toxic for the US to enter into any discussions at all about a trade deal.

 

[BobKowalski]

....

You knowingly wanted to stay in a system that tried to inflict that on its people, initially without any transparency (I wonder why), because you believed that the protests would work against a political system that was still saying it wanted it. I didn’t.

I still hate the fact they even tried and it stopped because Trump pulled the plug although it had stalled by then, but then again how many times did the Brexit negotiations “stall”? I even seem to recall there were protests about Brexit.

Fuck off with that nonsense. You voted for a Govt that would willingly inflict TTIP on this country, and that’s after voting to remove the barriers to a TTIP deal. You also voted for a Govt that insisted on secrecy, lack of transparency and a refusal to engage with industry sectors when negotiating Brexit - which is why we got such a crap deal that benefited no one.

Even joining CPTPP is more about manourvering ourselves to a position where we can accept US regulations and standards

‘At one stage within government, joining CPTPP was being floated as an idea specifically in the hope it paved the way to a US trade deal by forcing acceptance of controversial elements of agriculture trade such as acceptance of standards that would permit imports of chlorinated chicken and hormone treated beef.’ @Borderlex

You state opposition to something, then actively vote to have it happen. You have zero credibility on your reasoning for voting for Brexit. Trying to pretend it was some principled choice simply doesn’t add up.

 

[metalblue]

Your reasoning never made sense. You still haven’t squared how a post Brexit UK which is desperate for a US trade deal is better positioned to avoid a trade dicking from the US than a UK tied into the EU.

One of the central planks of Brexit was the ability to do a trade deal with the US. You reckoned we weren’t going to get raped over that? Bizarre. I mean, we got screwed by the TCA with the EU, so fuck knows what the Yanks would get. Even the Aussies pulled our pants down.

It doesn’t make sense or you disagree with it? I’m pretty sure I’ve clearly laid out my reasons for voting for Brexit. TTIPs. You disagree it was a problem. That’s really fine with me.

I do agree that we might be a bit too quick to pull our pants down at the prospect of a deal with the US and @joe123 made some very good points on why Brexit might make a TTIPs style agreement more likely due to Brexit. In 2016 my vote was driven by what facts were in front of me, should the UK follow a similar TTIP path with the same contentious issues, like @lloydie I would put my faith in the protests changing the political mood music but unlike him I would also use my vote to protest, to vote in any party who would be opposed to it and they (the Tory’s most likely) would never get my vote again.

Like most of not all of us on here, that’s all I’ve got to offer.