Priti Vacant has a plan, a deal with migrants plan.

hilts said:
The problem is the discussion is never debated and people can blame companies govts or whoever. But at the end of the day they have zero power until the population gives it them.

The Tories are cunts but why wouldn't they be they were voted in by cunts. And that doesn't mean the rest are much better.
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True. It’s really difficult to come up with a long term plan to change without short term pain. We’d need a PM with charisma, gravitas, intellect, foresight and empathy,

I‘m not sure there will be anybody like that step forward.
 
BrianW said:
I do not see why employers should be forced to employ (for example) lazy ne'er-do-wells with a drug habit just because those people were 'lucky' enough to be born here. Employers have a right to be able to employ the employable.
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Yes I sort of agree with that, but the thing is you either force people who are 'lazy ne'er-do-wells' into work or you let them stay at home on benefits and import replacements, expanding the population, which is what I think is happening, to a certain extent.

I think there has been some attempt to tackle this through Universal Credit - (where your job if you don't have a job is to be looking for a job...) but it isn't really working. In some countries, I believe, if you are fit and healthy to work you get benefits for a time-limited period which focusses the mind somewhat, but we wouldn't implement such a system here. It's easier just to import people and forget the fact that 40 years into the future the people who have come won't suddenly get to 65 and think, oh time to go home, no they will retire here, need health care here and eventually a place in a care home* here and so it goes on and on.

*Oh and also in the care homes will be the elderly ne'er-do-wells (if they have managed to kick their drugs habit!) who will also need looking after too.
 
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Maggie Thatcher said 'you cannot buck the market' and I agree with her. If you want capitalism you have to accept (among other things) the free movement of labour and capital. We have this in the UK. No one would dream of putting a border around Manchester, for example, and demanding visas. To extend the principle to the EU is scarcely radical and bear in mind, it cuts both ways. People who thought themselves undervalued here could move to Germany, or wherever - if they were enterprising. Wages are set by the market, with an underpinning national minimum wage. And indeed, benefits like Universal Credit. It ain't ideal, but it works, or rather, it worked. That system grew the economy and we grew richer as a society. OK, the rewards were not evenly spread, but that's capitalism (plus the political choice of people who kept electing free market capitalists who do not believe in redistribution - they call it theft!)

If I was an employer I would not be prepared to employ some bone-idle cnut just because they were English. Why should I? Being English or British is not a meal ticket. It's not my business (as an employer) what happens to them in later life.

Now then, there is an alternative. But it's a tough one. We could have a closed, socialist state, where all labour is directed. You would not have a choice if you were unemployed. If a waiter was wanted in Accrington, or Truro, off you would go. There would be no dole as such, nothing, and the state would put you in a 'reformation camp' if you were awkward and you would be 're-educated'. But people really would not want that! For one thing, the economy would shrink and we would be a lot poorer. For another, there would be no freedom.

There is an underclass who are effectively unemployable. In a free society, you can badger them and make them jump through hoops, but you can only go so far. If you stop their money they will just turn to even more crimes than they already commit. There's no simple answer, and if there's an answer at all it isn't a punitive one. It's annoying but short of adopting totalitarian methods, there's not much that can be done in the short term.
 
El_george said:
You are right.

I read this about a month ago in the news and was shocked that I agreed with Tony Blair!:

"Tony Blair has launched a new drive for ID cards as he claims it would tackle illegal migration.

A report by the former prime minister’s institute, published on Friday, said the weakest link in the Government’s approach to migration was its failure to crack down on a black market fuelled by unscrupulous employers giving jobs to illegal migrants.

It proposed a “digital identity verification” system for all Britons which would be required to claim benefits or work in the UK. To get an ID card, individuals would have to demonstrate they had a legal right to reside in the UK and verify their identity via their passport or equivalent document.

It resurrects a plan that the former prime minister introduced when he was in government but which was repealed as soon as David Cameron’s coalition government took power in 2010 following opposition from human rights lawyers, activists, security professionals and IT experts.

The proposal follows a doubling to more than 14,200 in the number of migrants reaching the UK in small boats across the Channel. There are estimated to be between 310,000 to 500,000 illegal migrants living in the UK, on top of a backlog of more than 100,000 awaiting an asylum decision.

“The UK is an attractive destination partly because parts of our labour market are under-regulated, which means it is easier to work in the informal economy (and therefore disappear off the radar) than in countries where you must prove your right to work and reside,” said the report.

“Common sense would suggest that this continues to represent a significant pull factor for those seeking to attempt dangerous journeys to the UK.”

www.telegraph.co.uk

Tony Blair launches new drive for digital ID cards to tackle illegal immigration

Proposal follows a doubling to more than 14,200 in number of migrants reaching the UK in small boats across the Channel
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

Part of the problem is though that anything Tony Blair thinks is a good idea, well immediately x% of people are just going to disagree with it, because its him! This article doesn't mention RWNJs, it says it was blocked by "human rights lawyers, activists, security professionals and IT experts." but I get what you mean.

It really is weird that people like Farage and Rees-Mogg moan about the migration issue on the one hand but due to their unshakeable belief in Britishness and that because the frenchies have ID docs, we mustn't, they are in effect blocking a solution to a problem they want solving!

The fact is, in WWII we had I.D. cards and we should have just kept them going - there'd have been no 'Windrush Scandal' because when we needed people in the 40's and 50's they'd have been given their documentation, on arrival and that would have been that. 50 years later & anyone tries to deport me, I'd just flash the id card: problem solved.

As I said the other day, we are in a similar situation now to that of 1948 - we need to import people to keep the country running. ID cards should be implemented for everyone - it would help the Police too, in all sorts of ways and stop a major pull factor causing people to risk everything to get across the channel.

The only people who wouldn't agree to this are people who have something to hide and I don't understand the whole 'it is un-British' argument that some other people put forward. It really seems a no-brainer. It would also mean an end to 10-yearly census thingies as the people who plan services and infrastructure would have real-time information about population stats.

I was never a big fan of Tony Blair, I blame much of what is wrong with the county on stuff he did & I think he is to blame for Brexit too - but he is right on this.
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Tony Blair also proposed some of the toughest immigration laws ever whilst still upholding the UN Refugee Convention rules...... the proposals were blocked by Michael Howard (then Home Office)....don't let anyone tell you that Labour are / were soft on immigration.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Tony Blair also proposed some of the toughest immigration laws ever whilst still upholding the UN Refugee Convention rules...... the proposals were blocked by Michael Howard (then Home Office)....don't let anyone tell you that Labour are / were soft on immigration.
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I think if you took 100 Tory voters and 100 Labour voters a majority of the Labour ones would be for unlimited immigration, open borders even, whereas only a tiny % of the blue side would be.

The focus groups and the polling people and even face-to-face meetings during by-elections will mean Keir Starmer knows this. That is a problem, so I predict in the run up to the Election of 2024 he will try to avoid the subject altogether. If an interviewer brings it up he will say, "there are more urgent matters to deal with...." He can't do anything else because if he talks about 'controlling immigration' he might appeal to the red wall, but lose progressive voters who don't agree with that.

What I don't understand is that even the Green Party seem to lean towards open borders/unlimited migration yet having a bigger population is only going to make it more and more difficult to move to net zero.

I also think Liz Truss will try to avoid the topic as well, she certainly seems to have not gone near it during the leadership campaign. Sunak said he was determined to control immigration, but didn't elaborate. Their problem is quite simple: Sunak was a Brexiteer, Truss a convert from remain to Brexit (and I have heard her praising Johnson for getting Brexit done), but one of the basic tenets of the bloody thing was control of immigration - that hasn't happened.

Will any party be honest enough to say in an election campaign that despite the impact on energy usage and despite the impact on services and infrastructure (so a need to invest in schools, roads, hospitals etc.) we need to import more people to keep the country running? I don't think so.
 
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Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Tony Blair also proposed some of the toughest immigration laws ever whilst still upholding the UN Refugee Convention rules...... the proposals were blocked by Michael Howard (then Home Office)....don't let anyone tell you that Labour are / were soft on immigration.
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Blair's Labour were a million miles away from today's probably why they formed a government
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
And as Ive already posted..... more than 70% of asylum seekers have their request for asylum granted by the UK. This figure increases to over 80% on appeal. Whilst they are waiting for their claim to be heard they are housed and paid £39.63 a week to pay for toiletries and food... they are not allowed to work.

They are deported if their appeal fails. If they are granted asylum and commit a criminal offence punishable by more than 12 months in prison they can then be deported as well.

If they are here illegally then they cannot claim benefits or use the NHS as they do not hold a National Insurance number.

As Ive also pointed out before.... If change to the UN Refugee Convention was really wanted by the Government of this country they would be either lobbying the UN for it or looking to withdraw (bit embarrassing as it was drafted by the UK in the first place) but they're not are they? Thats because they realise that in the big scheme of things Asylum seekers are not that big a problem .

You're being played ..... but you wont accept it.
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None of that contradicts anything I’ve said.

There is an underground of illegal work and modern slavery that exists though, migrants are being sold a dream of work here, illegally entering the country in the hope of getting this work and being exploited when they get here or not being exploited and not contributing to tax or NI.

There are up to 750,000 estimated at the moment, that’s not a small number.
 
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