Priti Vacant has a plan, a deal with migrants plan.

[ChicagoBlue]

Don’t know the answers but 4 years prison seems a tad harsh in my eyes.

Would it have anything to do with the fact that at 5yrs you can apply for residency?
I’m asking.

 

[Rascal]

What SHOULD happen to “migrants without permission” (previously known as “illegal immigrants”)?

If there is no deterrence, why have a law? Why not open the border to all comers? What if your circumstance was not “Live in a war torn country, no house, no food, cold and no future”…do you still qualify? How do you know if the country was war torn, if they had a house, any food, were cold, or had any future, unless you have a legally approved process that gets all that information…IF that’s the threshold?

I’m not saying Patel is right or wrong, or that you are right or wrong. I’m asking, “Are those the two extreme choices, and if so, who decides and why, and what would YOU do differently?

Always looking to learn about how to solve the difficult questions of the last few millennia.

A bit of history first, in 1948 the UK passed legislation that gave every person living in the British Empire rights to British citizenship. That then was around circa 180m people, it was one of the last acts of clinging to Empire.

As the UK appeared on maps a large part of the planet was pink, pink for British. Many of those people were brought up to see the UK as the Mother country, they had Democracies and legal systems similar to ours, they spoke English.

Great Britain was the promised land, they were British subjects. They fought in their hundreds of thousands in both World Wars with troops, airmen and naval personal from such disparate places as Jamaica, India, South Africa, Uganda and more.

After WW2 Britain had a Labour shortage and needed workers, many moved here encouraged by the likes of Enoch Powell and although Britain had always had immigration throughout the ages, from Flemish Weavers to Chinese Labourers, immigration became a dirty word and Right Wing propaganda was pushed into the mainstream which lead to the rise of Far Right parties in the UK. There was Far right parties in the UK in the 1930's under Oswald Moseley, supported by the likes of the Daily Mail, they protested again Jewish immigration from Germany as Hitler rose to power.

The UK though continued to abide by its obligations to the UN charter on refugees and gave homes to the likes of Ugandan Asians expelled by Idi Amin, the Vietnamese Boat people , and nowadays people from Hong Kong.

What Priti Patel is doing in my opinion is going against our history of being a warm welcoming country to people in need and is reducing it to the base instincts of the resurrected far right, who have always revelled in the history of Empire without accepting the consequences of that history. The love Rule Britannia as it evokes memories of the Britain they want us to be, not the Britain we are. It manifests itself in English exceptionalism, the sort of stance taken in the EU negotiations of do they not know who we are?

The leave campaign and especially Farage used immigration and the fear of immigration as a tool to achieve their aim of leaving the EU, posters of migrant flows, claims that millions of Turks will moving into your street, that ramped up anti immigrant rhetoric an its become a self fulfilling prophecy. Now the pulls rightwards and it continues rightwards so each player has to be tougher on immigration than the one before whether they believe in it or not because if they don't they do not look credible. Patel goes a little further and the next person to become home secretary goes a little bit further again because the rabid right are getting what they want and the country veers ever rightwards.

I actually do not think Patel could do anything different, I happen to think she is a witch, but she is not appealing to me, i m not her target, her targets will be revelling in this but the more revel, the less they think of the consequences.

Already the UK is massively short of midwives, its short of nurses, it has a shortage of lorry drivers, it is has a shortage of skilled workers, but none of that matters as long as the Home Secretary looks tough on immigration and she wants to look tougher, in fact she needs to look tougher because her base demand she is tougher.

I doubt her measures will make any difference at all, but they will play to her base who will lap it up.

As for me, I just want my country back, the country that is fair, treats people properly, does not treat desperate people as criminals and has compassion, empathy and sympathy for those less fortunate than ourselves.

 

[Phil1]

Would it have anything to do with the fact that at 5yrs you can apply for residency?
I’m asking.

They would have plenty of time to learn the words to the national anthem in jail so might put them in a good position to get their residency granted I suppose.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Let's face it, our idea that the world and his wife want to live here is outmoded and arrogant. Swathes of our country cannot even afford to buy a house or even rent one, despite working full time.

I assume you are not familiar with the housing allowances given to such migrants, and the rental agents who live handsomely off this population? I know of one such person who has made herself into a multimillionaire by renting properties to asylum seekers from who she doesn’t even have to collect rent…because she gets paid directly!

 

[blueparrot]

Once again, your anecdotal “body of evidence” is fatally undermined by the facts.

View attachment 20749

Almost all of which were here legally because we wanted / needed , those people, and still do, Probably all of them arrive through ports.
Those arriving on dinghies and boats are a completely different thing. I’ll ask again when they are picked up how would you treat them and do you think putting them in a prison regardless of their story is right.

 

[andyhinch]

A bit of history first, in 1948 the UK passed legislation that gave every person living in the British Empire rights to British citizenship. That then was around circa 180m people, it was one of the last acts of clinging to Empire.

As the UK appeared on maps a large part of the planet was pink, pink for British. Many of those people were brought up to see the UK as the Mother country, they had Democracies and legal systems similar to ours, they spoke English.

Great Britain was the promised land, they were British subjects. They fought in their hundreds of thousands in both World Wars with troops, airmen and naval personal from such disparate places as Jamaica, India, South Africa, Uganda and more.

After WW2 Britain had a Labour shortage and needed workers, many moved here encouraged by the likes of Enoch Powell and although Britain had always had immigration throughout the ages, from Flemish Weavers to Chinese Labourers, immigration became a dirty word and Right Wing propaganda was pushed into the mainstream which lead to the rise of Far Right parties in the UK. There was Far right parties in the UK in the 1930's under Oswald Moseley, supported by the likes of the Daily Mail, they protested again Jewish immigration from Germany as Hitler rose to power.

The UK though continued to abide by its obligations to the UN charter on refugees and gave homes to the likes of Ugandan Asians expelled by Idi Amin, the Vietnamese Boat people , and nowadays people from Hong Kong.

What Priti Patel is doing in my opinion is going against our history of being a warm welcoming country to people in need and is reducing it to the base instincts of the resurrected far right, who have always revelled in the history of Empire without accepting the consequences of that history. The love Rule Britannia as it evokes memories of the Britain they want us to be, not the Britain we are. It manifests itself in English exceptionalism, the sort of stance taken in the EU negotiations of do they not know who we are?

The leave campaign and especially Farage used immigration and the fear of immigration as a tool to achieve their aim of leaving the EU, posters of migrant flows, claims that millions of Turks will moving into your street, that ramped up anti immigrant rhetoric an its become a self fulfilling prophecy. Now the pulls rightwards and it continues rightwards so each player has to be tougher on immigration than the one before whether they believe in it or not because if they don't they do not look credible. Patel goes a little further and the next person to become home secretary goes a little bit further again because the rabid right are getting what they want and the country veers ever rightwards.

I actually do not think Patel could do anything different, I happen to think she is a witch, but she is not appealing to me, i m not her target, her targets will be revelling in this but the more revel, the less they think of the consequences.

Already the UK is massively short of midwives, its short of nurses, it has a shortage of lorry drivers, it is has a shortage of skilled workers, but none of that matters as long as the Home Secretary looks tough on immigration and she wants to look tougher, in fact she needs to look tougher because her base demand she is tougher.

I doubt her measures will make any difference at all, but they will play to her base who will lap it up.

As for me, I just want my country back, the country that is fair, treats people properly, does not treat desperate people as criminals and has compassion, empathy and sympathy for those less fortunate than ourselves.

What’s she proposing we do with them when their jail time is up ?

 

[blueparrot]

What’s she proposing we do with them when their jail time is up ?

Hoping its not her problem by then probably.

 

[metalblue]

Don’t know the answers but 4 years prison seems a tad harsh in my eyes.

They’ll be out in 2 with good behaviour

 

[andyhinch]

Hoping its not her problem by then probably.

So just kicking the can down the road.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

What Priti Patel is doing in my opinion is going against our history of being a warm welcoming country to people in need and is reducing it to the base instincts of the resurrected far right, who have always revelled in the history of Empire without accepting the consequences of that history.

Having been born, raised, and mainly educated in Britain, I appreciate the history of the Empire, which is why I ONLY copied the above.

You see you quote the law, the history, but then made a wholly moralistic leap, not based in law or history.

Patel is a result of British democracy, and the Parliamentary system that rules it. When you elect a right wing government, one should expect a right wing policy slant.

Now, I fully understand that most of Bluemoon would gladly have been stomped underfoot at Peterloo for their socialistic tendencies, and I’m not arguing against their beliefs.

Rather, I asking to be offered the Labour/Social Democrat/Liberal/Leftie/You name it version of this policy that would pass muster with the majority of the country that doesn’t drag its knuckles or hide behind the George Cross as their cloak of invincibility.

Open Borders OR 4 yrs behind bars SEEMS like an extremist base from which to begin a conversation, yet here we are with the thread we were dealt.

However, cast aside the extremis and simply tout what would be a reasonable, workable, humane, economically and socially fair program and the “who, why and how” of those able to use the process.

As always with these things, and as we have seen in the US for decades now, the death of good governance does not come from a difference of ideas and opinions, but a determination to never get to “Yes” that helps perpetuate a status quo that feeds the gilded classes at the expense of the masses…the proverbial “I’m alright Jack, don’t rock the boat!”

Here in the USA, that can work for generations, as centuries of black history prove, but in the British parliamentary system, change is only a wish away for the party in power, and one party appears unable to get its shit in gear to grab any power, leaving the fairway open for the Right to play through.

So, if and when normalcy and potential centrism takes hold, what is the BRITISH MIGRATION SYSTEM that Patel or A.N. Other might propose that would make Britons proud?