Reform UK Party Limited Company

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I meant those ones by people called Jack009955679 or that are run by 81 year old dead people who voted Reform yesterday - not one by this scum bag

Obviously russian bots at it again mate ;-)

 

[tonea2003]

I meant those ones by people called Jack009955679 or that are run by 81 year old dead people who voted Reform yesterday - not one by this scum bag

4 million dead people voted yesterday did they? whether you agree with them or not you obviously don't they are entitled to vote, this is what is called democracy
their rationale is open to debate of course
some will have racist reasons some won't

 

[bluethrunthru]

4 million dead people voted yesterday did they? whether you agree with them or not you obviously don't they are entitled to vote, this is what is called democracy
their rationale is open to debate of course
some will have racist reasons some won't

Not sure that they voted for them ( would be difficult ) but they did campaign for them from beyond the grave

 

[tonea2003]

Not sure that they voted for them ( would be difficult ) but they did campaign for them from beyond the grave

thats a different issue and one that should be investigated if true
but the fact that they got 14% share of the vote to labours 33% should not be ignored/dismissed
as i've said the rationale is to be debated but certainly not ignored

 

[bluethrunthru]

thats a different issue and one that should be investigated if true
but the fact that they got 14% share of the vote to labours 33% should not be ignored/dismissed
as i've said the rationale is to be debated but certainly not ignored

how many times in the past have you complained about FPTP? If you were old enough which way did you vote when the LD's got a referendum in changing away from that?

 

[SebastianBlue]

Well now we get into subjectivity. Yes, if immigration stopped tomorrow those issues wouldn't disappear over night. But they also wouldn't continue to get worse, in their opinions.

One thing that I do agree with the Reform lot on, is the structure of the economics of immigration. Immigration is almost always a net economic benefit for a nation but there's a lot of caveats to that. The biggest caveat being this - immigration is a stealth tax on the working classes that benefit the generally middle classes. It keeps unskilled labour costs depressed through simple supply and demand as well as increasing competition for council housing, GPs appointments and all the rest you mention. That's sort of inarguable those last few things, that's just a function of having more people here no matter where they come from.

These factors are generally not an issue though to the middle to high income earners, especially business owners. They get cheap labour to keep costs down. To low incomes though, having more people in competition, especially if those people are classed as in desperate situations for asylum meaning they'll move to the front of any queue, it has devastating effects.And the fact that many have travelled through numerous safe countries only to get here and then jump the queue sticks in their craw, rightfully imo. I'm in Labour heartland and Reform came 2nd here. Any visit to a local pub in the area will tell you exactly what people are concerned about.

Immigration is a net economic benefit but it's paid for by the lowest earners, and in the last few decades without their consent.

The rise of the so called Metropolitan left winger has really hurt the lefts view on this issue. Before New Labour, they were often anti-immigration. Trade unionists understood that introducing more immigrants to the workforce would do nothing but help businesses have more power and not have the culture education of the importance of trade unionists and collectivism.

The "anti immigration is racist" argument was dreamt up by Mandelson and his ilk as one tactic of browbeating socialists in line. "Oh, the NF don't like immigration either, youre not secretly a RACIST are you??" Etc. It worked incredibly to the point now that a ton of people seem to believe that any political opinion that doesn't advocate open borders is therefore secret and hidden racism.

You see if you don't want more immigration and you're pissed off about it then you vote for Reform. And if you vote Reform then you're secretly a racist. And if you're a racist then you're secretly a fascist. And if you're a fascist then you're secretly a Nazi. And it's ok to denigrate, bully, harass, assault and kill Nazis because they're bad.

Watching this shit happen in real time is frustrating.

Are you honestly arguing that anti-immigration rhetoric has not become a dog whistle for the far-right? And that Reform is merely a legitimate grievance party?

By the way, speaking as a retired (but at the moment quite tired) economist, your analysis regarding the economic impacts of immigration is incomplete and thus flawed. There are too many points for me to enumerate in my fatigued state but the most important is that whilst there very much is a significant issue with exploitation of immigrant labour, the lowest earners benefit the most from lower labour costs, as marginal increases in the price of goods and services have the greatest impact on the lowest economic strata. This problem is compounded in situations where labour shortages abound (for whatever reason, whether due to few workers available or few willing to work for offered wages), which require robust immigration to mitigate in the short-term (and long-term, if birth rates remain low).

This remains one of the most difficult dynamics to manage from an economic policy standpoint in a “free market” system (where profit motive and shareholder value is the primary driver of business decisions), as attempting to improve one side has an inverse impact on the other side.

If the profit motive and shareholder value focuses could be dampened, even marginally, this issue could be addressed in a much more productive, human-centred fashion. But as long as they remain in their current guise, calling for a halt in immigration to prevent more “lower skilled” labour from entering the market is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Immigration is not the issue, the current state of our economic system causing immigration—and the exploitation of immigrants and low skilled labour—to be “necessary” is the issue.

That’s ignoring the inherent socioeconomic and cultural issues with “only the right people should be able to immigrate” nonsense that is spouted by many that prescribe to Reform’s asinine platform.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

how many times in the past have you complained about FPTP? If you were old enough which way did you vote when the LD's got a referendum in changing away from that?

UKIP got a similar amount of votes in 2015. It’s about their limit. It makes them a vocal pest from the sidelines. Nothing more.

 

[half & half derby scarf]

Surprised the Nazi party got so many votes tbh

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Come third?

I mean vote share wise, unless that’s wrong?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Surprised the Nazi party got so many votes tbh

Especially as we deployed the tried and trusty method of calling them names instead of dismantling policy properly. We never seem to learn