Religion

Marklr

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That's me in the corner
That's me in the spolight
Losing my religion.

It's wrong. It warps peoples minds, there is no religion just an interpretation by individuals, they twist it and use it to benefit themselves.

So sad
...and I think that if theists were intelligent and honest enough, they would question their beliefs and come to the same conclusion. The theists on here are intelligent...but they must find it difficult to be more honest with themselves.
 

Blue Mist

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If you've got nothing to do, don't do it here.
...and I think that if theists were intelligent and honest enough, they would question their beliefs and come to the same conclusion. The theists on here are intelligent...but they must find it difficult to be more honest with themselves.
I fully accept this is a generalisation but the Catholic Church banned birth control. That kept the majority in poverty and therefore less educated. In turn that meant it was easier to indoctrinate them into catholic beliefs. The church then passed round the begging bowl, sorry collection, taking money they desperately needed thenselves but also continuing the poverty/belief cycle .
 

ZenHalfTimeCrock

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'Hope that answers your question' - yep, your religion is fully condoning slavery and making women lesser than men.
When it comes to the first issue, there has been a recent academic treatment of it by Jonathan AC Brown called Slavery and Islam.

I haven’t got around to it yet but have read a couple of Brown’s other publications. Both were eloquently written and meticulously attentive to detail. There may be reviews of the book online if you have a look, though bear in mind that the last time I checked there had been an attempt to smear him on one site I found.

Brown is a Muslim convert and an eminently reasonable guy. When I taught GCSE Islam I had cause to contact him via e -mail with a query about jihad and he came across really well in his replies. My guess would be that he may have been prompted to write on the subject of slavery because of what happened to Yazidi women in Iraq but I can’t be sure.

On whether women are second-class citizens in Islam, there are a couple of points that I would like to make.

Qur'an 4:34 is an especially controversial verse that would appear to divinely sanction domestic violence and male superiority over women.

Although, in some Muslim societies, the passage has undoubtedly been read in this way to justify male physical abuse, there is another side to this story.

First of all, according to Qur'an 4:1, the first man and woman were created from a single soul (nafs wahida). This negates the possibility of men being granted ontologically superior status by virtue of the male having been created first.

Secondly, many verses in the Qur'an teach that men and women are to be kind and supportive to each other. For example, the last Quranic verse to be revealed was 9:71, in which men and women are described as being each other's protecting friends and guardians, emphasising their cooperation in living together as partners, rather than adversaries or superiors or subordinates.

Likewise, the hadith note Muhammad's respect for and protection of women, and that from what we know of his conduct towards his wives, he apparently never struck them or addressed them harshly. Muhammad once said, 'The best of you is he who is best to his wife.'

As far as 4:34 is concerned, a merely symbolic, physical chastising is thought to be indicated on some readings. Apparently, the early jurists also saw battery itself as a criminal, reprehensible activity, for which they saw the husband as legally liable and required to pay compensation to his wife.

Obviously, the verse (and its various interpretations) has still not sat well with modern Muslim feminist exegetes, who have argued that the relevant term ‘daraba’ can credibly be rendered as 'leave them alone' rather than to beat.

Hope I am not coming across as an apologist for either Islam or religion in mentioning the above. I am well aware that the history of the major world faiths is one that is actually poor when it comes to the treatment of women.

This is also true in the case of Christianity and slavery, especially with respect to the white ownership of black slaves in the USA, which has a Biblical basis.

As Diarmaid MacCulloch observes at one point in his vast history of the faith, ‘The Epistle to Philemon [authored by St. Paul] is a Christian foundation document in the justification of slavery.’
 

vmsuhail

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The Islamic religions claims in the Quran that it is the perfect and complete guide for all human eternity.

So it claims to be the perfect system before, during and after the lifespan of human kind. Now you’ve again quoted me some lovely, cute stuff, but let’s get this straight. Islam allows and regulates slavery, Mohammed practiced slavery and your scripture makes slavery possible even today. There is no point downplaying this because it is not my opinion, your very own scripture and its heroes say so. Since the Quran is the main source of your believe lets look at some of its verses.

Quran 2:178 – “Prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered. The free for the Free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female” – Why is Allah dividing humans in different categories? Is Allah not supposed to be equal?

Sahih Muslim 1602, book 22, hadith 152, 10:3901 Mohammed purchased slaves, not exactly emancipation now is it? In fact, he traded 2 black slaves for 1 arab slave. Hmmm? Why not free all 3 slaves? Why are 2 black slaves worth 1 Arab slave? Mohammed does not seem to be following all that you said above.

Sahih Bukari 9:89:296 – a Slave owner wanted to free a slave, but Mohammed instead decided to sell him for 800 dirhams

Quran 33:50 – Sex with slaves

Quran 4:24 – shows that the companions of Mohammad were reluctant to have sex with married slaves until Muhammed approved it in the Quran and suggested to not pull out either.

23:5-6, 70:27-30 – more sex with slaves, or let’s call it what it is (rape).

Quran 66:4 – Mohammed raped his Egyptian slave Maria de Coptic. His wives Aisha and Hafsa felt disrespected, but Allah intervenes repudiating his wives. Same in Sahih Muslim 15:4112

Sahih Bukhari, slave owner frees a slave, but Mohammed said they would have gotten more reward if they had given her to one of her maternal uncles.

Sahih Bukhari – “none of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her”. Says Mohammed...

As for the whole islam encourages you to free slaves, it does not hold up when your leader is clearly not following his own rules. In fact, Zad al-Ma’ad says the names of at least 40 slaves owned by Mohammed…Perhaps you meant to say “whoever frees a “MUSLIM SLAVE”, allah will save all the parts of his body from the hellfire. Sahuh Bukhari 3:46:693

Now as for the treatment of slaves, well as you can see from the verses, Muslims during that time tended to rape the slaves. The Zanj Rebellion against the abbasid Caliphate is also testament and evidence that muslims treated the slaves brutally, and that africans were against slavery. Slavery was certainly a norm in Arabic culture, but it is false to say it was the norm worldwide in this historical period. As we had many powerful civilisations during this period that did not engage in slavery and even fought against it. So, there was clearly a moral high ground and difference being made even during these periods. People just seem to think that Abrahamic history is the worlds history. That is not the case! For example

Sassanid Empire had slavery laws that stated beating slaves is a crime even for a king, slaves to be treated humanly or freed, slaves can buy freedom, freeing slaves encouraged. This was before islam…

Today self-proclaimed califates such as isis, that ignore western international law, go back to Islamic laws to enslave people of my country and tribe in Mali today. For example, you have my tribe the madinka, who are at large Muslims. We have another group called the dogan people. These are also madinka, but called dogan, because they rejected to follow Islam.These people are being killed and sold into slavery by the Muslims to Arabic nations. The Muslims don’t do this because they corrupt Islam, or because they are a bunch of lawless people. No, they take this practice directly from their leader, the one your book claims to be the example of humanity.

I would say that you are better and live a more morally righteous life than Mohammed sir. And so have millions of leaders before, during and after Mohammed’s life.

My point was not even really about Islam, but religion as a whole. It is nonsense to claim that religion has not encouraged people to do bad things and just excuse it by saying bad people use religion as a tool.

I knew you would come up with a list, and hence why I asked in my previous post to bring one at a time and not overload me. Anyways, I'll provide my comments on each of them.

Quran 2:178 – Why is Allah dividing humans in different categories? Is Allah not supposed to be equal?
Answer: Well the reason is when it comes to legal retribution for murder, the punishment is equal whether it's a free man, women or a slave. Some things have to be explicitly stated when there exists a hierarchy in the society.

Sahih Muslim 1602, book 22, hadith 152, 10:3901 Mohammed purchased slaves, not exactly emancipation now is it? In fact, he traded 2 black slaves for 1 arab slave
Answer: Muhammad(saw) was not the King of Arabia. He was only a leader of the Muslims. His rules apply only to his people. This event refers to a slave who came to the prophet and accepted Islam during the migration. The Prophet accepted him, but didn't know that he was a slave. As you probably know, the migration happened because the early Muslims were persecuted. When the master came and demanded him to be returned, what do you think the Prophet could have done ? Send him back to the oppressing master ? So, he had to trade 2 black slaves owned by Muslims as that was the law among the Arab pagans.

Sahih Bukari 9:89:296 a Slave owner wanted to free a slave, but Mohammed instead decided to sell him for 800 dirhams
Answer: The reason is also mentioned there right ? The person didn't own any property other than that slave and he was on his deathbed. So the prophet sold him and sent the money back to him to leave something for his children.

Same in Sahih Muslim 15:4112
Answer: It's a similar case of another person who had no property and decided to free all his 6 slaves at the time of his death. The prophet asked him to free 2 and keep the other 4. These are done on a case-by-case basis based on the situation. But, did you notice that the followers who had nothing left were freeing all their slaves ? That attitude change is the result of the Qur'an.

Sahih Bukhari, slave owner frees a slave, but Mohammed said they would have gotten more reward if they had given her to one of her maternal uncles.
Answer: Again a specific case of asking to gift her slave (not sell) to maternal uncle. Maybe her uncles were in poverty and badly needed their service.

Quran 33:50 – Sex with slaves
Yes. This was the norm for 2500 years and Qur'an approved sexual relationships between master and slave as not adulterous. Remember, only the master is allowed to have sex and nobody else. Qur'an also forbids forcing slaves to prostitution in verse 24:33. Perhaps this was allowed so that the sexual needs of the slave is also met. But wait, the Law doesn't end here. Islamic law also stipulates that when a child is born out of this relationship, the slave moves to the status of "umm-al-walad" (mother of a child) who became automatically free on her master's death. The child is considered free and considered legitimate children of their father, including full rights of name and inheritance. So even this provision is meant to end slavery.

Quran 4:24 – shows that the companions of Mohammad were reluctant to have sex with married slaves until Muhammed approved it in the Quran and suggested to not pull out either.
Answer: Learn the full story. This is regarding the battle of Awtas, where the enemy warriors fled to the mountains leaving behind their women and children. The Muslims waited for their delegation to come and rasom them, but didn't. The companions of Muhammad(saw) were reluctant to take them as slaves because they knew their husbands were alive. The verse addressed this case and approved MARRYING them. Remember marriage needs approval of the women. The choice was offered to the women, and they choose to be returned to their families and the Muslims returned every single one of them.

23:5-6, 70:27-30 – more sex with slaves, or let’s call it what it is (rape).
Answer: Ermm, not rape. Just allowance of sex with slaves as I explained earlier.

Quran 66:4 – Mohammed raped his Egyptian slave Maria de Coptic.
Answer: Nonsense. Maria(ra) was an Egyptian slave gifted to the Prophet by the then ruler of Egypt. After she became a concubine of the prophet, she embraced Islam. The prophet had a child in this relationship who died in his infancy. This is a legitimate relationship pre-Islam and within Islam. The other wives have nothing to complain, and the report of their displeasure doesn't come from any authentic source. The actual story behind this verse 66:4 is reported by his wife Aisha(ra) herself in Sahih Bukhari, it's a totally different incident.

Sahih Bukhari – “none of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her”.
Anwer: Hmm...yeah you can't flog your wife like flogging a slave (practice of pre-Islam). Muhammad(saw) also forbid beating a slave.

Zad al-Ma’ad says the names of at least 40 slaves owned by Mohammed…
Answer: They were not all his slaves at the same time. You are missing the point that Muslims purchased slaves who accepted Islam from their non-Muslim owners and then later set them free. Then there are also prisoners of war. For example, in that list of 28 men, you will find the name Zayd Ibn Haritha, whom the prophet purchased, then freed him and adopted as his son. How many slaves did he have when he died ? Probably Zero.

If some Abbasid King or ISIS ill-treated the slaves, it is against the scriptures. You keep going on about rape. Look around the countries in the world today, and it's the Islamic countries that give the harshest punishment for rape, and you say you can rape a slave, when both the Qur'an and prophetic teachings emphasize on their good treatment. Sassanid Empire may have had slavery laws, but it didn't impact the Arabian society. They still had slavery, so entrenched that the concept of a servant was absent. If you want someone to do some work, you needed to find a slave.

Muhammad(saw) has addressed the issue of slavery as well as he could.
 

vmsuhail

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So your god is weak as fuck. What's the point? It's the same with the other non-existent god (or is it the same one?),,,strict orders not to eat shellfish but nothing to stop slavery. What a joke. This god could have just said "thou shalt not keep slaves or own other humans" from the start. Your excuses are very weak too. It's shameful that you can worship such an immoral concept and then make excuses for it. All over something that has zero evidence for its existence.

"Nothing to stop slavery" ? That's not an honest assessment at all. You might find my reasons weak, but those are the ground realities I understood from a very good historical study. I'm not advocating it either, in fact I understand the overall theme of the Qur'an to be against it.
 

Marklr

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"Nothing to stop slavery" ? That's not an honest assessment at all. You might find my reasons weak, but those are the ground realities I understood from a very good historical study. I'm not advocating it either, in fact I understand the overall theme of the Qur'an to be against it.
You're missing my point. This god character could have stated clearly that slavery was not allowed under any circumstances. Your god failed the people.
 

Grassland Blue

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That’s kind of the Star Trek scenario. From memory, I think Gene Roddenberry deliberately made the Starship Enterprise a religion-free zone (no chapels, mosques etc.).

I reckon religion will still be with us right to the end, though (assuming that the human race isn’t going to be around for that much longer).

Right now, secularisation is patchy.
The Chinese communist party banned religion.
A few years ago they re- introduced it, Catholicism being the official religion.
 

arfurclue

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Thank you for that answer.

When I read the Qur'an a few years ago i was struck by just how much the book was aimed at essentially only men. It talked to men directly, how they should 'treat their women' etc etc, and women were referenced only really via "tell your women to do this". Women were to be revered, yes, but reverence doesn't imply equality. It is a pedestal to be placed upon, with anger aimed towards women who don't achieve the lofty expectations decided by 'god'. Any women who didn't live up to those standards, which were essentially standards of chastity, were a disgrace, whereas that wasn't the case with men as such. Found it very unbalanced.
Just to add, there is a beatitude that is often translated as ‘blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth’ which, from the Aramaic, might be translated more like ‘blessed are the humble for they shall receive the earth.’ Maybe we could extend that to saying that as one lets go of arrogance, one becomes more open to receive the gifts of Mother Nature. And if She is truly beautiful, then maybe that’s not such a bad thing
 

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