Religion

arfurclue

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15 Dec 2008
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Mexico
Sorry to hear that, I hope the coffee is given the time and space to grieve properly.

As for the rest, eh ?
Have you come across, for example, the idea of the shadow in psychology? If this idea is true, then would it be valid to question whether someone who does not experience a state of peace, may have war within their shadow?
From wiki :

Have you looked into, for example, the idea of the shadow in psychology? Is it possible that if someone does not know a state of peace, they may have war within their shadow?
from wiki
“In analytical psychology, the shadow(also known as id, shadow aspect, or shadow archetype) is either an unconscious aspect of the personalitythat the conscious ego does not identify in itself, or the entirety of the unconscious; that is, everything of which a person is not fully conscious. In short, the shadow is the unknown side.

From one perspective, the shadow "is roughly equivalent to the whole of the Freudian unconscious";[1] and Carl Jung himself asserted that "the result of the Freudian method of elucidation is a minute elaboration of man's shadow side unexampled in any previous age".[2]: 63  Contrary to a Freudiandefinition of shadow, however, the Jungian shadow can include everything outside the light of consciousness and may be positive or negative. Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative. There are, however, positive aspects that may also remain hidden in one's shadow (especially in people with low self-esteem, anxieties, and false beliefs).[3] "Everyone carries a shadow", Jung wrote, "and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is."[4] It may be, in part, one's link to more primitive animal instincts,[5] which are superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind
 

Stoned Rose

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29 Oct 2010
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21,141
Location
Rusholme with Love
Fuck the motherfucker, fuck the motherfucker
Fuck the motherfucker, he's a fucking motherfucker
Fuck the motherfucker, fuck the fucking fucker
Fuck the motherfucker, he's a total fucking fucker

Fuck the motherfucker, fuck the motherfucker
Fuck the motherfucker, fucking fuck the motherfucker
Fuck the motherfucker, fuck the motherfucking pope

Fuck the motherfucker, and fuck you, motherfucker
If you think that motherfucker is sacred
If you cover for another motherfucker who's a kiddie fucker
Fuck you, you're no better than the motherfucking rapist

And if you don't like the swearing that this motherfucker forced from me
And reckon it shows moral or intellectual paucity
Then fuck you, motherfucker - this is language one employs
When one is fucking cross about fuckers fucking boys

I don't give a fuck if calling the pope a motherfucker
Makes you unthinkingly brand me an unthinking apostate
This has naught to do with other fucking godly motherfuckers
I'm not interested right now in fucking scriptural debate

There are other fucking songs, and there are other fucking ways
I'll be a religious apologist on other fucking days
But the fact remains, if you protect a single kiddie fucker
Then pope or prince or plumber, you're a fucking motherfucker

You see, I don't give a fuck what any other motherfucker
Believes about Jesus and his motherfucking mother
I've no problem with the spiritual beliefs of all these fuckers
While those beliefs don't impact on the happiness of others

But if you build your church on claims of fucking moral authority
And, with threats of hell, impose it on others in society
Then you, you motherfuckers, can expect some fucking wrath
When it turn out you've been fucking us in our motherfucking asses

So fuck the motherfucker, and fuck you motherfucker
If you're still a motherfucking papist
If he covered for a single motherfucker who's a kiddie fucker
Fuck the motherfucker, he's as evil as the rapist

And if you look into your motherfucking heart and tell me true
If this motherfucking stupid fucking song offended you
With its filthy fucking language and its fucking disrespect
If it made you feel angry, go ahead and write a letter

But if you find me more offensive than the fucking possibility
The pope protected priests when they were getting fucking fiddly
Then listen to me, motherfucker, this here is a fact:
You are just as morally misguided as that motherfucking
Power-hungry, self-aggrandised bigot in the stupid fucking hat.

Might be a bit hard to remember after 8 pints on away days.
 

journolud

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Macclesfield
Have you come across, for example, the idea of the shadow in psychology? If this idea is true, then would it be valid to question whether someone who does not experience a state of peace, may have war within their shadow?
From wiki :

Have you looked into, for example, the idea of the shadow in psychology? Is it possible that if someone does not know a state of peace, they may have war within their shadow?
from wiki
“In analytical psychology, the shadow(also known as id, shadow aspect, or shadow archetype) is either an unconscious aspect of the personalitythat the conscious ego does not identify in itself, or the entirety of the unconscious; that is, everything of which a person is not fully conscious. In short, the shadow is the unknown side.

From one perspective, the shadow "is roughly equivalent to the whole of the Freudian unconscious";[1] and Carl Jung himself asserted that "the result of the Freudian method of elucidation is a minute elaboration of man's shadow side unexampled in any previous age".[2]: 63  Contrary to a Freudiandefinition of shadow, however, the Jungian shadow can include everything outside the light of consciousness and may be positive or negative. Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative. There are, however, positive aspects that may also remain hidden in one's shadow (especially in people with low self-esteem, anxieties, and false beliefs).[3] "Everyone carries a shadow", Jung wrote, "and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is."[4] It may be, in part, one's link to more primitive animal instincts,[5] which are superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind
That’s interesting stuff but Freud and Jung aren’t far behind some of the major religions stories in terms of their grounding in science and fact. Fine if you want to believe in psychoanalysis as a discipline but there are other takes on the human condition.

You started on the inner war stuff in response to a poster citing the number of wars fought in the name of religion so your answer was somewhat irrelevant.

Iv’ve stated my belief on here many times that religion may be the excuse for wars fought by men but is not the reason. Where you might have a case is in positing that men go to war to escape their demons but unless I’ve totally misread you I don’t think that is the point you were so wordily making
 

Blue Mist

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14 Aug 2005
Messages
25,632
Have you come across, for example, the idea of the shadow in psychology? If this idea is true, then would it be valid to question whether someone who does not experience a state of peace, may have war within their shadow?
From wiki :

Have you looked into, for example, the idea of the shadow in psychology? Is it possible that if someone does not know a state of peace, they may have war within their shadow?
from wiki
“In analytical psychology, the shadow(also known as id, shadow aspect, or shadow archetype) is either an unconscious aspect of the personalitythat the conscious ego does not identify in itself, or the entirety of the unconscious; that is, everything of which a person is not fully conscious. In short, the shadow is the unknown side.

From one perspective, the shadow "is roughly equivalent to the whole of the Freudian unconscious";[1] and Carl Jung himself asserted that "the result of the Freudian method of elucidation is a minute elaboration of man's shadow side unexampled in any previous age".[2]: 63  Contrary to a Freudiandefinition of shadow, however, the Jungian shadow can include everything outside the light of consciousness and may be positive or negative. Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative. There are, however, positive aspects that may also remain hidden in one's shadow (especially in people with low self-esteem, anxieties, and false beliefs).[3] "Everyone carries a shadow", Jung wrote, "and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is."[4] It may be, in part, one's link to more primitive animal instincts,[5] which are superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind
Must admit I haven't but history shows us that religious leaders of all faiths have commanded their followers to engage in war. The Catholics did it for centuries as did the Muslims, Burma (Myanmar) is still doing it. An individual may seek peace, whether the leader will allow it is a different matter. They want power and conquest brings that.
 

arfurclue

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Mexico
That’s interesting stuff but Freud and Jung aren’t far behind some of the major religions stories in terms of their grounding in science and fact. Fine if you want to believe in psychoanalysis as a discipline but there are other takes on the human condition.

You started on the inner war stuff in response to a poster citing the number of wars fought in the name of religion so your answer was somewhat irrelevant.

Iv’ve stated my belief on here many times that religion may be the excuse for wars fought by men but is not the reason. Where you might have a case is in positing that men go to war to escape their demons but unless I’ve totally misread you I don’t think that is the point you were so wordily making
Thanks. I can’t really disagree with your first paragraph but just wanted to use it as one example, one way of looking at it.
The inner vs outer war thing, I find interesting as both come to feel linked to paradigms of war that are a way of (non) relating. Almost as though both are ways/the result of some kind of lack in communication. But that’s just where I am at and others are free to look at it differently.
Am really curious as to the idea you mention of going to war to escape demons. First thought Is that it doesn’t really work so well! But will contemplate some more.
 

journolud

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Location
Macclesfield
Thanks. I can’t really disagree with your first paragraph but just wanted to use it as one example, one way of looking at it.
The inner vs outer war thing, I find interesting as both come to feel linked to paradigms of war that are a way of (non) relating. Almost as though both are ways/the result of some kind of lack in communication. But that’s just where I am at and others are free to look at it differently.
Am really curious as to the idea you mention of going to war to escape demons. First thought Is that it doesn’t really work so well! But will contemplate some more.
Demons not in the biblical sense and I’m only speaking from my limited perspective of managing therapists who will have had direct experience of treating clients with PTSD based on experience of war. Many, not all, when a fuller history is obtained have “issues” that predate signing up and probably contributed to the decision to. I don’t want to over generalise because it’s not fair to but I think there are a significant number of people join the forces to escape something, maybe in the hope of finding something but not with the hope of ending up in a battle zone.
 

Vic

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Demons not in the biblical sense and I’m only speaking from my limited perspective of managing therapists who will have had direct experience of treating clients with PTSD based on experience of war. Many, not all, when a fuller history is obtained have “issues” that predate signing up and probably contributed to the decision to. I don’t want to over generalise because it’s not fair to but I think there are a significant number of people join the forces to escape something, maybe in the hope of finding something but not with the hope of ending up in a battle zone.
"Demons" in any sense is not a helpful image for treating psychological trauma.
 

arfurclue

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Location
Mexico
Demons not in the biblical sense and I’m only speaking from my limited perspective of managing therapists who will have had direct experience of treating clients with PTSD based on experience of war. Many, not all, when a fuller history is obtained have “issues” that predate signing up and probably contributed to the decision to. I don’t want to over generalise because it’s not fair to but I think there are a significant number of people join the forces to escape something, maybe in the hope of finding something but not with the hope of ending up in a battle zone.
Haven’t been in the military or been on that type of battlefield, so won’t speak of that. But did I try to escape my ‘demons’ by getting into various confrontations? Maybe. Though it feels more that I didn’t know how to face and be free of those demons in a safe way, where they didn’t to live through me. Possibly a mixture of both. But this. for me, is what this thread touches on - even if the outer subject is religion. Not so easy at times but if a deeper understanding and tolerance can come - whether pro/anti or neutral re religion - is that such a bad thing?
 

journolud

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Macclesfield
"Demons" in any sense is not a helpful image for treating psychological trauma.
I wouldn’t want to generalise. A lot of people are comfortable with and use it to describe the psychological battles they face. I’d go with the language people want to use.

Anyway, I think it’s understood what I meant, sorry if it offends
 

journolud

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7,754
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Macclesfield
Haven’t been in the military or been on that type of battlefield, so won’t speak of that. But did I try to escape my ‘demons’ by getting into various confrontations? Maybe. Though it feels more that I didn’t know how to face and be free of those demons in a safe way, where they didn’t to live through me. Possibly a mixture of both. But this. for me, is what this thread touches on - even if the outer subject is religion. Not so easy at times but if a deeper understanding and tolerance can come - whether pro/anti or neutral re religion - is that such a bad thing?
Not a bad thing at all. There’s a marked intolerance to religion on this thread. It is slightly tangential but you touched on it with your comments about inner peace or calm. I’d lean towards Buddhism in my understanding of the causes of suffering and the way etc but I’ve no problem with whatever brings someone comfort if in gaining that they don’t negatively impact others
 

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