Religion

Now u tell me, are the laws in this world all subjective? Ofcourse they are.
In a sense they are, but in another sense, they are based on thousands of years of trial and error. Laws that don't help societies function typically disappear. Societies that have poorly created laws that don't create stable environments tend to historically lose out to those with more effective laws and institutions. Of course this happens over the long term, and plenty of countries will exist at any one time with laws that aren't conducive to a well run society (often based on religion, no less).

A couple of good examples i would say. And it backs up my argument that we should resort to gods laws and not mans laws. As humans we all have different interpretations of what is good and what isn't. And there is no better one to guide us then the creator himself. :-)
The problem of course is that the creator's views aren't actually available, just the views of a bunch of writers from a thousand to several thousand years ago, depending on which ones you happen to trust. So what you're actually left with is the choice between our current law based on thousands of years of human progress and knowledge, or the views of someone who perhaps lived 2000 years ago who had very little knowledge of the world outside of their immediate society or the many possible ways of creating a society. And even then, it's not as if those 2000 year-old books are clearly laid out, so you're still interpreting it entirely subjectively.
 
The nonsense that nothing created everything?
It not nonsense. We just haven't come up with a suitable scientific theory which describes it yet. We can however prove through scientific method that there is a very high level of probability that an event billions of years ago was the catalyst for our current predicament in the universe.

There is crap in the bible which describes things which we know to be scientifically/geologically implausible if not impossible.
 
In a sense they are, but in another sense, they are based on thousands of years of trial and error. Laws that don't help societies function typically disappear. Societies that have poorly created laws that don't create stable environments tend to historically lose out to those with more effective laws and institutions. Of course this happens over the long term, and plenty of countries will exist at any one time with laws that aren't conducive to a well run society (often based on religion, no less).


The problem of course is that the creator's views aren't actually available, just the views of a bunch of writers from a thousand to several thousand years ago, depending on which ones you happen to trust. So what you're actually left with is the choice between our current law based on thousands of years of human progress and knowledge, or the views of someone who perhaps lived 2000 years ago who had very little knowledge of the world outside of their immediate society or the many possible ways of creating a society. And even then, it's not as if those 2000 year-old books are clearly laid out, so you're still interpreting it entirely subjectively.
What you've stated was subjective viewpoint with subjectve laws progressed by convention (subjectivity) in to the story. You mention knowledge which is another word for science ( scientia) . The basis for knowledge are laws of logic
To reach objectivity ( independent of whatever anyone thinks- reality) there are laws of logic which are the basis of uniformity in nature, objective morality , intelligibility , reason, understanding , language , mathematics, coherency.
These laws do not arise spontaneously in matter and are eternal without beginning , are uncreated yet they don't stand in causal relations. They don't cause anything since they are not physical. You can't stub your toe on the laws of logic. They are abstract. The laws are : law of non contradiction;law of excluded middle; law of identity. Law of non contradiction is an example such as " my car is in the car park and it is the case that my car is not in the car park".
We also trust that the universe is uniform throughout. The laws of logic will be the same on the moon as on earth. You can break them ie in contradictions but that would result in incoherence so the said car is either in the car park or it is not. The statement cannot be both true and false in the same sense.
These laws cannot be fabricated. They don't change. They are necessary for thought . They don't originate in anything or anyone because they are uncreated. They are there before us every time we think, make a sentence, read a book .. they are the basis of thought and language. They are the basis for objectively correct thinking .
These laws govern reality and thought and are assumed by Judeo Christian Scripture . Some claim they are arbitrary Western constructions but this is false . . They are true for 2 reasons
1. They are intuitively obvious and self evident , once one understands a basic law of logic one can see it's true.
2. Those who deny them use the same principles of logic in their denial, showing that those laws are unavoidable and it is self-refuting to deny them..
They are not arbitrary inventions of God or laws that exist outside of God's being. They are not like laws of nature. God may violate gravity ,say,but He cannot violate the laws of logic . That's because they are rooted in God's own nature. " in the beginning was the Word( logos) is accurately translated as " In the beginning was Logic" Jn 1:1 ( a divine rational mind ) . That is revelation, God's self communication.
So the creator has made His views available in the laws of Logic namely via the the Logos who is the Ultimate Ground of reality .
 
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It's existence causes more unrest, harm and pain on the planet than pretty much anything else so yes, I'm offended by it.
I don’t want to be pedantic but I’ve always held the view that unrest, harm and pain is what humans do and that while a lot of this may be in the name of religion it’s a bit harsh to blame a concept for actions people voluntarily undertake.

Likewise I know of at least 2 churches in my home town that are at the forefront of helping and supporting the most vulnerable in the community. This is the effect of religion too? Or also humans doing what they do.

Plenty of secular are’s holes in the world as well.

I find this thread pretty depressing. I’m not religious myself but know it can do as much good as harm, as much harm as good depending on how the word is interpreted and put into action.

There is a stubborn refusal to look beyond the most obvious arguments about it all.
 
It not nonsense. We just haven't come up with a suitable scientific theory which describes it yet. We can however prove through scientific method that there is a very high level of probability that an event billions of years ago was the catalyst for our current predicament in the universe.

There is crap in the bible which describes things which we know to be scientifically/geologically implausible if not impossible.
And the event was caused by ?
 
I don’t want to be pedantic but I’ve always held the view that unrest, harm and pain is what humans do and that while a lot of this may be in the name of religion it’s a bit harsh to blame a concept for actions people voluntarily undertake.

Likewise I know of at least 2 churches in my home town that are at the forefront of helping and supporting the most vulnerable in the community. This is the effect of religion too? Or also humans doing what they do.

Plenty of secular are’s holes in the world as well.

I find this thread pretty depressing. I’m not religious myself but know it can do as much good as harm, as much harm as good depending on how the word is interpreted and put into action.

There is a stubborn refusal to look beyond the most obvious arguments about it all.
I respect your opinion.
 

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