Restoring the Death Penalty in Britain

[SWP's back]

Idiocy in the extreme. Most soldiers do NOT "want" to kill people and those that do, often want to for the reasons of hatred and revenge so that example is ridiculous in the extreme. There is a difference between having to kill in war to stay alive and wanting to kill.

I accept that.

Now tell me why soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are killing people to stay alive. This is where your argument falls down.

Back on topic, this is a very simple issue. Those who want the death penalty want to bring it back because of fear. They are scared of criminals. It's no different from any of the isms that you want to throw out; people always want to kill those that they are scared of.

Fear is indeed one of the reasons; fear and hatred are bedfellows. However, I will reiterate, it is not the only reason. Some people with strong religious views ( of whatever persuasion ) demand an eye for an eye. This is not motivated by hatred as many of these folk are gentle in the extreme and merely view it, rightly or wrongly as the punishment decreed by God, many muslims demand the death penalty, as do many christians and are by no means swivel eyed lunatics driven by hatred. So no, it is not all fear/hate or whatever.

I'm sorry but one persons irrational belief should not lead to the execution of another human.

I also though Christians preached turning of the other cheek and that it is God alone that should decide a persons fate, hence the lack of need to play "God".

I would also say that any religious person that decrees someone should die as it is "decreed by God", then I would label them as swivel eyes lunatics to be honest.

 

[Damocles]

No it doesn't fall down Damocles. They are sent there and have no say in that. They can't opt out and once they are there, live in the field, they have to kill to stay alive. Have you watched nothing of the firefights taking place in Afghan?

I am not saying it is right that they are sent there. I am saying that they are often forced to kill once they get there. Do not confuse the politics of us being there with the reality on the ground for the lads that are.

You are speaking as if soldiers have no free will, which is false. Everybody has a choice. Perhaps not a choice that they like, but a choice nevertheless.

What many need to realise, is that once soldiers start exercising their own free will, then they might actually start protecting the country, which is the banner under which they fly.

 

[ali benarbia's studs]

sounds like you two!!!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf2tkGrpOAI[/youtube]

 

[SWP's back]

No it doesn't fall down Damocles. They are sent there and have no say in that. They can't opt out and once they are there, live in the field, they have to kill to stay alive. Have you watched nothing of the firefights taking place in Afghan?

I am not saying it is right that they are sent there. I am saying that they are often forced to kill once they get there. Do not confuse the politics of us being there with the reality on the ground for the lads that are.

You are speaking as if soldiers have no free will, which is false. Everybody has a choice. Perhaps not a choice that they like, but a choice nevertheless.

What many need to realise, is that once soldiers start exercising their own free will, then they might actually start protecting the country, which is the banner under which they fly.

Talking out of your arse. They have free will to not join the army Damocles. But once they have joined, they have no say ion where they are posted. If they are posted into any active theatre, such as Afghan, then they have no free will not to engage an enemy intent on killing them.

So, by your reckoning, no one should join the army as that is the only chance they get to exercise their free will? Again, that is about politics, not the the situation on the ground.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I accept that.

Now tell me why soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are killing people to stay alive. This is where your argument falls down.

Back on topic, this is a very simple issue. Those who want the death penalty want to bring it back because of fear. They are scared of criminals. It's no different from any of the isms that you want to throw out; people always want to kill those that they are scared of.

Fear is indeed one of the reasons; fear and hatred are bedfellows. However, I will reiterate, it is not the only reason. Some people with strong religious views ( of whatever persuasion ) demand an eye for an eye. This is not motivated by hatred as many of these folk are gentle in the extreme and merely view it, rightly or wrongly as the punishment decreed by God, many muslims demand the death penalty, as do many christians and are by no means swivel eyed lunatics driven by hatred. So no, it is not all fear/hate or whatever.

I'm sorry but one persons irrational belief should not lead to the execution of another human.

I also though Christians preached turning of the other cheek and that it is God alone that should decide a persons fate, hence the lack of need to play "God".

I would also say that any religious person that decrees someone should die as it is "decreed by God", then I would label them as swivel eyes lunatics to be honest.

'Irrational belief' is arrogant in the extreme, it is not irrational to them, it is sincere and firmly held, even though I agree with you..
I think the distinction is that I understand and empathise with other views, whilst disagreeing with certain sections of them and do not merely offer up simplistic solutions such as it must be hatred or fear that leads folk to support the death penalty.
Pub time now. I could kill for a lunchtime pint :)

 

[SWP's back]

Fear is indeed one of the reasons; fear and hatred are bedfellows. However, I will reiterate, it is not the only reason. Some people with strong religious views ( of whatever persuasion ) demand an eye for an eye. This is not motivated by hatred as many of these folk are gentle in the extreme and merely view it, rightly or wrongly as the punishment decreed by God, many muslims demand the death penalty, as do many christians and are by no means swivel eyed lunatics driven by hatred. So no, it is not all fear/hate or whatever.

I'm sorry but one persons irrational belief should not lead to the execution of another human.

I also though Christians preached turning of the other cheek and that it is God alone that should decide a persons fate, hence the lack of need to play "God".

I would also say that any religious person that decrees someone should die as it is "decreed by God", then I would label them as swivel eyes lunatics to be honest.

'Irrational belief' is arrogant in the extreme, it is not irrational to them, it is sincere and firmly held, even though I agree with you..
I think the distinction is that I understand and empathise with other views, whilst disagreeing with certain sections of them and do not merely offer up simplistic solutions such as it must be hatred or fear that leads folk to support the death penalty.

Is it fuck arrogant in the extreme. I am not saying they are wrong to believe but the belief in an Abrahamic monetheism is irrational which ever way you look at it. The rational position is not one lacking in any evidence what so ever. Faith without evidence is not a rational position.

You say it is rational to them which is of no consequence I am afraid. Anders Behring Breivik holds a belief that what he did was a rational consequence of his beliefs. You and I can both see that he not act in a rational manner.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Idiocy in the extreme. Most soldiers do NOT "want" to kill people and those that do, often want to for the reasons of hatred and revenge so that example is ridiculous in the extreme. There is a difference between having to kill in war to stay alive and wanting to kill.

I accept that.

Now tell me why soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are killing people to stay alive. This is where your argument falls down.

Back on topic, this is a very simple issue. Those who want the death penalty want to bring it back because of fear. They are scared of criminals. It's no different from any of the isms that you want to throw out; people always want to kill those that they are scared of.

Fear is indeed one of the reasons; fear and hatred are bedfellows. However, I will reiterate, it is not the only reason. Some people with strong religious views ( of whatever persuasion ) demand an eye for an eye. This is not motivated by hatred as many of these folk are gentle in the extreme and merely view it, rightly or wrongly as the punishment decreed by God, many muslims demand the death penalty, as do many christians and are by no means swivel eyed lunatics driven by hatred. So no, it is not all fear/hate or whatever.

An eye for an eye is the complete antithesis of Christian values as I perceive them.

I am a profound agnostic but I have no problem ascribing the term 'Christian' in a complimentary sense to someone who embodies the principals of forgiveness, tolerance and a sense of community.

An aspiration to see people killed in any way whatsoever is in no way Christian.

 

[SWP's back]

I accept that.

Now tell me why soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are killing people to stay alive. This is where your argument falls down.

Back on topic, this is a very simple issue. Those who want the death penalty want to bring it back because of fear. They are scared of criminals. It's no different from any of the isms that you want to throw out; people always want to kill those that they are scared of.

Fear is indeed one of the reasons; fear and hatred are bedfellows. However, I will reiterate, it is not the only reason. Some people with strong religious views ( of whatever persuasion ) demand an eye for an eye. This is not motivated by hatred as many of these folk are gentle in the extreme and merely view it, rightly or wrongly as the punishment decreed by God, many muslims demand the death penalty, as do many christians and are by no means swivel eyed lunatics driven by hatred. So no, it is not all fear/hate or whatever.

An eye for an eye is the complete antithesis of Christian values as I perceive them.

I am a profound agnostic but I have no problem ascribing the term 'Christian' in a complimentary sense to someone who embodies the principals of forgiveness, tolerance and a sense of community.

An aspiration to see people killed in any way whatsoever is in no way Christian.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/christianethics/capitalpunishment_1.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... nt_1.shtml</a>

that's shocked me a little reading that link.

Seems Christians can choose the death penalty as the Bible is highly contradictory and therefore can be used to back up any argument.

 

[Damocles]

Talking out of your arse. They have free will to not join the army Damocles. But once they have joined, they have no say ion where they are posted. If they are posted into any active theatre, such as Afghan, then they have no free will not to engage an enemy intent on killing them.

So, by your reckoning, no one should join the army as that is the only chance they get to exercise their free will? Again, that is about politics, not the the situation on the ground.

No, again you misunderstand what free will is. They can walk away today if they feel like it. Nothing is stopping them from physically refusing to move. They can point blank refuse to go to XYZ. This IS free will. Free will doesn't mean "a decision without consequences", it means "a decision". They could always object on religious, political or moral grounds too

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Fear is indeed one of the reasons; fear and hatred are bedfellows. However, I will reiterate, it is not the only reason. Some people with strong religious views ( of whatever persuasion ) demand an eye for an eye. This is not motivated by hatred as many of these folk are gentle in the extreme and merely view it, rightly or wrongly as the punishment decreed by God, many muslims demand the death penalty, as do many christians and are by no means swivel eyed lunatics driven by hatred. So no, it is not all fear/hate or whatever.

An eye for an eye is the complete antithesis of Christian values as I perceive them.

I am a profound agnostic but I have no problem ascribing the term 'Christian' in a complimentary sense to someone who embodies the principals of forgiveness, tolerance and a sense of community.

An aspiration to see people killed in any way whatsoever is in no way Christian.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/christianethics/capitalpunishment_1.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... nt_1.shtml</a>

that's shocked me a little reading that link.

Seems Christians can choose the death penalty as the Bible is highly contradictory and therefore can be used to back up any argument.

Like you say the Bible is full off contradictions and anyone can crowbar in various passages to suit whatever position they feel the need for biblical justification.

But the overarching principal of Christianity, as I see it, is forgiveness and understanding. That is totally incompatible with wanting the return of the death penalty. It is a deeply unchristian thing to wish for.