Rewriting of History - Part II

[bluemanc]

Just a quick one. Not a debate about whether Hughes is the right man or not - he's not, in my view and never will be. The results speak for themselves.

However, answers to this one please.

After the Everton game I questioned why people were rewriting history and denying that prior to the start of the season (and especially at the end of the transfer window) they considered the performances and results so far to be completely unacceptable and to represent just about the worst possible job that could be done with this squad. ie: they would have thought that any manager taking this squad to the bottom three did not deserve much support.

People were making all sorts of excuses that they know they would not have even considered making and would have laughed at the impossibility of it all if the scenario was put to them at the start of the season.

Anyway, at that point the most ardent Hughes backers were strongly in favour of the next three games (Hull, West Brom and Blackburn) being the turning point and many were of the opinion that this is where it is turned around, with at least six points being the only valid return - proof that Hughes is taking us places. In fact, they were extremely vocal that to judge him before this run of games was not on.

Well, 4 points from these games and now I spy people trying to turn it around and spin it into something positive. A nice bit of "4 points from 2 games" statistical spin thrown in there too, completely ignoring the first game of the three.

So, my question to those who think that the long ball dirge served up yesterday (combined with an inability to obtain decent possession for massive periods against a team with one less midfielder and a 37 year old in the middle) was anything that even slightly resembles progress is this:



Please show me where a single person stated, prior to the West Brom game, that 4 points from the last 3 games would be a decent return. Failing that, does anyone want to try to claim that prior to the West Brom game they thought that 4 points from 9 was what we should be aiming for and would be something that is anything other than more underperformance from the team that the manager is leading?





Cos there were plenty of people pointing to the potential 6+ point returns on offer from these games as a defence of Hughes being given time or making progress.

(Ps: don't make this into a - "you can't sack him now, the timing is not right, the window is about to open, he'll turn it around then with more signings" thread. We all know that a dead monkey could turn it around with another £80m worth of signings to go on top of the £80m he's already had. That has no bearing whatsoever as to whether he has produced anything like acceptable results and performances.)

Just a quick one. Not a debate about whether Hughes is the right man or not - he's not, in my view and never will be. The results speak for themselves.

Didn't even bother reading the rest,your arrogance is mind blowing........that's not a compliment btw.

 

[lastmanback]

maybe the 3 matches chosen for this alleged trial period were not
the best markers to use, both WBA and blackburn we always lose
to no matter who's in charge, WBA have taken more points of city
than any other team they play in prem, we've only beatin blackburn
away once in prem. as for hull they have messed up the best this season.
But to the real answer to your Question,I'm not happy with what has transpired
since start of season, but to sack him now or last month without a proper big name
replacement would be stupid. I'm sure as you suggest my gran mother could pick a
team to stay up this season, but would they all agree with her training methods and
life style, she pushes a shopping trolly everywhere and walks a greyhound on a piece string
while swiggin from a bottle of blue nun, but as manager they would have to adjust to
her ways, which might be a little different to Sven's regime, ever so slightly :-)

 

[blueshortshorts]

Billy, I know we disagree on a fair amount of things but I'll try to quickly outline why my patience has snapped.

Normally I would agree completely with the general assertion that a manager deserves a season.

After a season there is a pattern that emerges where by a manager might be able to be judgd clearly.

However, its a sliding scale. Its harsher to sack a manager after a seaosn of underachievement than it is after two underachieving seasons. Similarly, its even less harsh after three, patterns are being established and excuses are even more hollow.

After six months the only situation where I would ever consider sacking a manager is if they have totally failed to meet any reasonable expectations that a reasonable man might hold about results in that period and possibly if this is added to the place not be a happy ship and the manager not controlling this and it seeming to impact on performances and results.

Unfortunately, the above completely describes Hughes reign and they are exceptional circumstances. Add in to this the lack of anything approaching decent, sustained good football and its been woeful and truly exceptionally bad.

Plenty of other managers have gone for siginificant underperformance in thier first six months. Plenty of them who have had a much tougher task, less money and less talent to work with than Hughes. That's what happens if you under perform on a gross scale. When they underperform to such an extent they lose their position of strength from which to ask for time.

And none of them who I can recall have ever had the temerity to say 'well, this is a great squad and I'm just failing to get them to play at present. It has to come good eventually, the players are too good for it not to, and even if it doesn't I hope to spend £80m next month and that should produce decent mid table football. So, please forgive my underachievment and managerial failure so far, the ability of the players and £80m more mean that this should be discounted and ignored'.

This laughable statement seems to be the only argument that Hughes and his backers are relying on so far.

I only call for a manager's head after six months in exceptional circumstances. I've never done it before at City, just maybe for other clubs that mean nothing to me. His results, performances and ability to create a happy camp have been exceptionally, exceptionally below par considering his resources. Therefore, I have no interest as to whether he wants the chance to spend £80m more to get out of it. This option isn't open to other grossly underperforming managers. WHy should he have it as an excuse?

I'll just repeat what I said about Sven.

If we sacked him after 6 months, we all would have thought he would have gone on to become City's best ever manager. 6 month's is nothing

Agree totally Hughes needs 12 months from now before we can judge him..that's right 12 months.

He's had 6 months with Sven's lot, but brought in the likes of Kompany, Zabba and SWP, not to mention Robhino.

He is just starting to suss out who has a future and who doesn't ( which usually takes any manager at least 6-8 months), he'll have another batch of players in January, that he has to try and bed in, and get the up to speed with the Premiership, then has to bring in another 3-4 in the summer. By next December he should have the first 11 he wants, plus a decent squad...then we see where it takes us. Until then, let's just support the team

 

[moomba]

I doubt there would be one person who would have predicted we would be doing as badly as we have with the squad that we have.

But it's happened and now people are scrambling to revise history and come up with excuses and revised expectations in an effort to defend Hughes.

Que sera sera and all that.

 

[NICKS BACK]

Like it or not Hughes is here and until someone better comes along then we have to stick by him. Simple as that.

It's not as if theres 5 or 6 top top managers unemployed waiting in the wings whilst we capitulate with Hughes, if he went now we'd spend the rest of the season with a caretaker manager and skeletal backroom coaching stuff which wouldnt help anybody at all.

I'm as unsure of Hughes as the next fan but until we can replace him with better then it'd be stupid to give him the boot. Look at it this way, we blatantly need a quality left back but that doesnt mean we should sell Ball and Garrido, no, we firstly need to buy a quality left back then sell Ball or Garrido as opposed to shipping out the poor quality and hoping one day soon we find a replacement.

Truthfully he is like O,Neill to Clough, Ferguson read Hughes, his record is actually second to none, he is in a power battle, and I think he will winn, and survive till next season and probably many more after, the reason he won't go or be sacked is because it is my belief he is coveted by the scum already.

They will see the amount of shit he has already taken, and they will be rubbing their hands in glee.


Sorry but our loss will be their gain, the mans a winner, an FA CUP run or dare I say even win, will change a few opinions.

Let him buy his prem proven players, and a real superstar in amy position, and we will not lose him, he just needs the backing, and in my belief he has got it.

By the way I have been a vociferous critic of his in the past, but I think he analyses the game differently to any of us on here, I think he will make it.

So there

 

[moomba]

Truthfully he is like O,Neill to Clough, Ferguson read Hughes, his record is actually second to none,

Are you saying Hughes' record is second to none?

How exactly?

 

[blueshortshorts]

Like it or not Hughes is here and until someone better comes along then we have to stick by him. Simple as that.

It's not as if theres 5 or 6 top top managers unemployed waiting in the wings whilst we capitulate with Hughes, if he went now we'd spend the rest of the season with a caretaker manager and skeletal backroom coaching stuff which wouldnt help anybody at all.

I'm as unsure of Hughes as the next fan but until we can replace him with better then it'd be stupid to give him the boot. Look at it this way, we blatantly need a quality left back but that doesnt mean we should sell Ball and Garrido, no, we firstly need to buy a quality left back then sell Ball or Garrido as opposed to shipping out the poor quality and hoping one day soon we find a replacement.

Truthfully he is like O,Neill to Clough, Ferguson read Hughes, his record is actually second to none, he is in a power battle, and I think he will winn, and survive till next season and probably many more after, the reason he won't go or be sacked is because it is my belief he is coveted by the scum already.

They will see the amount of shit he has already taken, and they will be rubbing their hands in glee.


Sorry but our loss will be their gain, the mans a winner, an FA CUP run or dare I say even win, will change a few opinions.

Let him buy his prem proven players, and a real superstar in amy position, and we will not lose him, he just needs the backing, and in my belief he has got it.

By the way I have been a vociferous critic of his in the past, but I think he analyses the game differently to any of us on here, I think he will make it.

So there

agreed

 

[Ric]

What the OP says is probably true, but only in the same way people are revisionist about Sven's regime - second half of the season we were shit, yet some eulogise about him as though he was better than Mercer. I think it's only fair to judge Hughes at the end of the season, taking a random selection of games as evidence of his regime is futile.

 

[allyboy]

Ric,
Thats bolox sorry.
I am taking MOST of the games so far, not a random selection.

Most have been diabolical.

You know the games I'm sure.

 

[NICKS BACK]

Truthfully he is like O,Neill to Clough, Ferguson read Hughes, his record is actually second to none,

Are you saying Hughes' record is second to none?

How exactly?

No I am saying Ferguson and Clough's records are second to none, I do believe that Hughes's education echoes that of O,Neill, and lets face it Villa and Forest are nowhere near as successfull as us in europe, unless you forget a couple of League Championships and 3 European Cups.

Hughes could not possibly have learnt anything under Venables and Ferguson, managing a national football side, or keeping Blackburn in the top half of the League.

Additionally he played for Wales in their Golden Generation, alongside, Giggs Rush Speed Ratcliffe Saunders and Southall, he ended up playing centre mid field, because no one was available as playmaker (giggs and Speed were too in experienced) and also on occasion as their stopper in midfield.

No I am certain as you are that Hughes has had a crap education and should be dispensed with immediatly.

 

[Ric]

Ric,
Thats bolox sorry.
I am taking MOST of the games so far, not a random selection.

Most have been diabolical.

You know the games I'm sure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Hughes lover. But the rot has been setting in since January this year; we've just carried on the form from last season. Hughes has to take responsibility for a lot of that, he's the manager after all. But his signings have been good on the whole, and he deserves time. For all the reactionary fans demanding his head now, who exactly do they propose replaces him at this stage of the season (bearing in mind Mourinho blatantly isn't coming mid-season)?

 

[Scottyboi]

Are you saying Hughes' record is second to none?

How exactly?

No I am saying Ferguson and Clough's records are second to none, I do believe that Hughes's education echoes that of O,Neill, and lets face it Villa and Forest are nowhere near as successfull as us in europe, unless you forget a couple of League Championships and 3 European Cups.

Hughes could not possibly have learnt anything under Venables and Ferguson, managing a national football side, or keeping Blackburn in the top half of the League.

Additionally he played for Wales in their Golden Generation, alongside, Giggs Rush Speed Ratcliffe Saunders and Southall, he ended up playing centre mid field, because no one was available as playmaker (giggs and Speed were too in experienced) and also on occasion as their stopper in midfield.

No I am certain as you are that Hughes has had a crap education and should be dispensed with immediatly.

agree mate i think hughes expertise will grow with the team.And we will have this era like utd and arsenal replicated and not just a quick 2 years like chelsea.

 

[lastmanback]

Ric,
Thats bolox sorry.
I am taking MOST of the games so far, not a random selection.

Most have been diabolical.

You know the games I'm sure.

Man City 2008/2009 results and fixtures
UEFA Cup EB Streymur 0-2 Man City 17-07-2008
UEFA Cup Man City 2-0 EB Streymur 31-07-2008
English Premier Man City 3-0 West Ham 24-08-2008
UEFA Cup Midtjylland 0-1 Man City 28-08-2008
English Premier Sunderland 0-3 Man City 31-08-2008
UEFA Cup Omonia Nicosia 1-2 Man City 18-09-2008
English Premier Man City 6-0 Portsmouth 21-09-2008
UEFA Cup Man City 2-1 Omonia Nicosia 02-10-2008
English Premier Newcastle 2-2 Man City 20-10-2008
English Premier Man City 3-0 Stoke 26-10-2008
UEFA Cup Man City 3-2 FC Twente 06-11-2008
English Premier Hull City 2-2 Man City 16-11-2008
English Premier Man City 3-0 Arsenal 22-11-2008
UEFA Cup Schalke 0-2 Man City 27-11-2008
UEFA Cup Man City 0-0 Paris St-G. 03-12-2008
English Premier Fulham 1-1 Man City 06-12-2008
English Premier Man City 5-1 Hull City 26-12-2008
English Premier Blackburn 2-2 Man City 28-12-2008

 

[allyboy]

Ric,
That's the big conundrum for us at the mo, and I don't have a definitive answer on a replacement manager.
One thing that really annoys about this situation is the timing, the transfer windows and the budget.
MH is a very very lucky man. I'm 99% sure he would have gone after West Brom if we were another club in a "normal" scenario.
I agree with you his signings bar a couple have been good but he has made some giant cock-ups (which I accept) but more worrying for me seems to take 10 games to put right.

I want him to succeed but JohnMaddocks OP is a strong one with which I agree.

Lets hope for yet "another turning point" soon......this time lets hope it lasts more than one game!!

 

[bluespana]

What were these giant cock-ups exactly?

 

[Ric]

Ric,
That's the big conundrum for us at the mo, and I don't have a definitive answer on a replacement manager.
One thing that really annoys about this situation is the timing, the transfer windows and the budget.
MH is a very very lucky man. I'm 99% sure he would have gone after West Brom if we were another club in a "normal" scenario.
I agree with you his signings bar a couple have been good but he has made some giant cock-ups (which I accept) but more worrying for me seems to take 10 games to put right.

I want him to succeed but JohnMaddocks OP is a strong one with which I agree.

Lets hope for yet "another turning point" soon......this time lets hope it lasts more than one game!!

Yeah, fair do's mate. I know where you're coming from. Don't know if any other club would have sacked him though; not many clubs sack their manager after less than 6 months in charge (Blackburn were an exception). If anything you could argue Hughes is unlucky in that the sheer weight of expectation at City means people want instant success. There's been a losing culture at City for a long time, you don't change it overnight. Not even convinced Hughes is the man for the job, but so tired of us changing manager every year or so that I think we should persevere for the timebing and get behind him.

 

[allyboy]

Ric,

Ok mate. i'm not gonna call him Sparky though!!!


Never.

 

[Ric]

I'm with you on that mate.

 

[lastmanback]

Ric,

Ok mate. i'm not gonna call him Sparky though!!!


Never.

call him what you like but he's the 20th manager we've had
since we last won a trophy. think it's time now to gamble a bit or stay
on the merry go round.

 

[moomba]

No I am saying Ferguson and Clough's records are second to none, I do believe that Hughes's education echoes that of O,Neill, and lets face it Villa and Forest are nowhere near as successfull as us in europe, unless you forget a couple of League Championships and 3 European Cups.

Didn't make Ince, Keane, Bruce etc top managers.

Hughes could not possibly have learnt anything under Venables and Ferguson, managing a national football side, or keeping Blackburn in the top half of the League.

He average 4 points a season better than his predecessor at Blackburn, and his second and third seasons were worse than his first. As for Wales, spare me.

Additionally he played for Wales in their Golden Generation, alongside, Giggs Rush Speed Ratcliffe Saunders and Southall, he ended up playing centre mid field, because no one was available as playmaker (giggs and Speed were too in experienced) and also on occasion as their stopper in midfield.

Does that make you a good manager?

No I am certain as you are that Hughes has had a crap education and should be dispensed with immediatly.

I've never said he has had a crap education, I've said that he has had crap results and performances since becoming manager. And that's all I'm worried about.