Riot in Tottenham (continued)

[Skashion]

Enabling Acts are a good idea until order is restored too.

 

[gh_mcfc]

whats an enabling act. Does it enable me to defend my town without worrying about the consquences.

 

[Fame Monster]

As you were typing JMA, I made another post in response to another poster which I felt addressed your view.

They are being driven by reckless opportunism and greed.

I guess that makes them equal to the engineers of their plight: the greedy, recklessly opportunist bankers who thrive when politics stays clear of economics.

Until the economy recognises moral desert, you will hear of the poor kids rioting, the avaricious Capitalists bringing down countries, the burglars getting stabbing to death in Salford. These will not go away.

All I'm suggesting is that we look at the root of the problem instead of losing our minds and wanting our brothers and sisters shot, burned, stabbed and hanged by the Establishment.

As I said, I feel this is a product of politics. I ask myself why we have a culture that is so fucking greedy and I can only return to the foibles of Capitalism.

I would agree that it is the product of politics. But it is the product of numerous political decisions over decades that have contributed to the rise of a culture that too often celebrates ignorance and violence (typing that I know I sound somewhat like people I can't stand, but I think in this case it's legit).

And it isn't the product of politics that aren;t similarly in place in every other Capitalist country. So, how many people in that crowd do you think have a genuine idealogical problem with capitalism as a way of life? Very few, I suspect.

It isn't a single issue. It isn't easily addressed. It isn't a product of contemporary economic issues.

We have to be really careful here. Where do you stop when you seek to constantly explore, dissect and try to solve the reasons for criminality. God knows, I've done enough of it in the past. At what point do you disagree with an action, treat it as purely a criminal act and separate it from political issues. There must be some point because you can go as far as you want down that road. I could link political issues that allow a society to develop a Harold Shipman or a Fred West, but no-one views them in the light of political events, current and past.

But I won't excuse to any extent pure, wanton destruction that exhibits nothing but a desire to indulge in criminality for criminality's sake.

I would be the first to look for political solutions to improve society and address inequality. But by linking the events of last night with immediate and contemporary political issues it gives them far too much legitimacy. Legitimacy that they don't deserve.

It seems a strange thing to say that they don't deserve the 'respect' afforded to rioters in the instances mentioned in the past - riots which I might have understood to varying extents and whose cause I may have supported, despite them undoubtedly also containing some vary unsavoury people. But this is nothing as noble (if there can be a noble riot).

Can you honestly say that you think people last night had a sense of 'justice' in their action, even a misguided one? I don't buy it. To my knowledge, genuinely motivated crowds riot in a totally different way. Sure, some involved will do some of the shite involved last night. But for that to be the sole aim of a riot. Nah, I don't buy it.

Justice, I'm not so sure, but these kids don't find it immoral to rob and take from others. Why? Because they were brought up in a dog eat dog world. Where is the line? Why is a salesman who coaxes a working man into signing a rolling contract complete with insidious small-print labelled a go-getter when these kids are labelled the scum of the earth because they stole a bag of fucking rice?

Law doesn't reflect morals, currency doesn't reflect desert.

Until we start cultivating virtue with an appropriate economic system, there will always be this sort of stuff.

 

[SWP's back]

Are you seriousy trying to deny that these people who are involved aren't thugs using mindless violence?

Perhaps they just need some attention the poor little darlings.

Mindless thugs or disenfranchised youths, rioters or legitimate protesters, the fact remains that the commentators in the media and many posters on here advocate far right wing answers to the situation. It appears that many people are advocating a virtual police state, an end to civil liberties and a rigid authoritarian approach.

A tory MP was ranting about teenagers being out after midnight, does he not realise you can marry and fight for your country at 16, drive at 17 etc. Does he want curfews i ask? Do we want curfews, do we want as law abiding citizens to see our liberties taken away from us because of the actions of a minority. The far right want this and its dangerous.

Until such time as order is restored curfews are an excellent idea. The idea that this is some far reaching end to our civil liberties is just laughable. People are literally having their fucking lives destroyed because we've been too afraid or too incompetent to act firmly and swiftly.

I couldn't agree more firmly Billy but unfortunately, some will always resort to "far right" scare stories to push their agenda.<br /><br />-- Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:43 pm --<br /><br />

Enabling Acts are a good idea until order is restored too.

Hang on! Has there been a fire at the Reichstag?

 

[mindmyp's_n_q's]

I'd nipped out actually...last line of my last post was a clue. "I'm done"
I didn't like the tone of your comment. Thought it was distatseful to tar a whole group with one brush like that.
I stand corrected on the libel comment.
You obviously know a great deal more about that than I do.

At the end of the day my gripe is with the handling as I said...dealer or not his family really should have been informed by the force that he had been shot. They found out through the press.Not good.
We obviously differ on our views around this.
C'est La Vie.

Fair enough. I was simply making the point that the mournful protest complaining about his death probably didn't give as much of a shit about the lives his affected badly with his gang and crack dealing.

The protest wasn't to complain about his death. It was to find out about his death. That was my point all along. Look if the guy was a hardened drug dealer and he messed up other peoples lives I can understand you not having a shred of sympathy for him or his family....but and here's the rub...until that is proven the poilce should have acted as they would if they shot anyone. Why would they not inform his next of kin as a matter of course? Because they knew he was scum and therefore all his family too so fuck them! Hardly impartial.Not informing the family has led to the question why and that's where their problem will lie in the ipcc investigation. There has to be consistency with the law or it starts to break down.

If I had a drug dealing family member who actively carried a gun he/she had had modified from a blank firing weapon to a live firing weapon and they got shot dead by the police, I don't think I would need to find out the answer to the "why on earth did they shoot them" question.

 

[TFC]

Fuck it, get the army in, 8 o'clock curfew until this shit is sorted out. Its in danger of going nationwide by the look of it - needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Are you seriousy trying to deny that these people who are involved aren't thugs using mindless violence?

Perhaps they just need some attention the poor little darlings.

Mindless thugs or disenfranchised youths, rioters or legitimate protesters, the fact remains that the commentators in the media and many posters on here advocate far right wing answers to the situation. It appears that many people are advocating a virtual police state, an end to civil liberties and a rigid authoritarian approach.

A tory MP was ranting about teenagers being out after midnight, does he not realise you can marry and fight for your country at 16, drive at 17 etc. Does he want curfews i ask? Do we want curfews, do we want as law abiding citizens to see our liberties taken away from us because of the actions of a minority. The far right want this and its dangerous.

I don't believe this is a right wing left wing situation now. People just want this to stop and if it takes a curfew or certain liberties taken away in the short term until things calm down then so be it. Law abiding citizens have been affected by this on many levels but I reckon the people of Croydon might be more open to having their lives affected by a temporary curfew than affected by having their town burnt down. I don't think there will be a long term curfew put into place at all, the government have shown that they are making an effort not to be heavy handed so I suspect it is very unlikely.

 

[Blue Tooth]

Fair enough. I was simply making the point that the mournful protest complaining about his death probably didn't give as much of a shit about the lives his affected badly with his gang and crack dealing.

The protest wasn't to complain about his death. It was to find out about his death. That was my point all along. Look if the guy was a hardened drug dealer and he messed up other peoples lives I can understand you not having a shred of sympathy for him or his family....but and here's the rub...until that is proven the poilce should have acted as they would if they shot anyone. Why would they not inform his next of kin as a matter of course? Because they knew he was scum and therefore all his family too so fuck them! Hardly impartial.Not informing the family has led to the question why and that's where their problem will lie in the ipcc investigation. There has to be consistency with the law or it starts to break down.

If I had a drug dealing family member who actively carried a gun he/she had had modified from a blank firing weapon to a live firing weapon and they got shot dead by the police, I don't think I would need to find out the answer to the "why on earth did they shoot them" question.

It's not about why...just a 'we shot your husnad/son/ type communication.
I'm obviously struggling to make my point lucidly here.
Have a picture instead...clean up squad on the streets of London this morning. Hope springs eternal.

 

[gh_mcfc]

Work with a guy from India. He is amazed how standoffish our police are.

He says in Inida they would be straight in to dish it out. He reckons for all indias issues we are the one who look like a 3rd rate nation at the moment. The world is laughing at us. He make the good point that without law, order and respect and even fear of the law we can never have a democracy only anarchy.

The moral. Give the police the power to scare. If this were footie fans they would not hold back

 

[SilvaLining]

Are you seriousy trying to deny that these people who are involved aren't thugs using mindless violence?

Perhaps they just need some attention the poor little darlings.

Mindless thugs or disenfranchised youths, rioters or legitimate protesters, the fact remains that the commentators in the media and many posters on here advocate far right wing answers to the situation. It appears that many people are advocating a virtual police state, an end to civil liberties and a rigid authoritarian approach.

A tory MP was ranting about teenagers being out after midnight, does he not realise you can marry and fight for your country at 16, drive at 17 etc. Does he want curfews i ask? Do we want curfews, do we want as law abiding citizens to see our liberties taken away from us because of the actions of a minority. The far right want this and its dangerous.

I don't believe this is a right wing left wing situation now. People just want this to stop and if it takes a curfew or certain liberties taken away in the short term until things calm down then so be it. Law abiding citizens have been affected by this on many levels but I reckon the people of Croydon might be more open to having their lives affected by a temporary curfew than affected by having their town burnt down. I don't think there will be a long term curfew put into place at all, the government have shown that they are making an effort not to be heavy handed so I suspect it is very unlikely.

Thing is, there would be a danger that this temporary curfew could be extended at will, however unlikely this would be. I suspect there are a decent number of people who would be concerned by this.