Rony Lopes

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In academy terms I am looking at this as a short term loss but a long term gain.
 
Will we ever give a youth player a fair crack at the first team or will we just continue to use them to generate revenue, i.e. buy them cheap then sell them for more?
 
If they are good enough and show signs of consistency then they would be given a chance. Rony Lopes will be in a similar situation when he does sign for Monaco.
 
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avoidconfusion said:
Will we ever give a youth player a fair crack at the first team or will we just continue to use them to generate revenue, i.e. buy them cheap then sell them for more?
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IMO it's the latter. Said this on here weeks ago and got shot down for my trouble. People seem to think that because we have we have one of the best academies in world football, we are going to be churning out 2 or 3 world class players into the first team every season. The truth is that 2 or 3 every generation would be a fine thing. Player's who we would consider to be good enough to play for the top 10 teams in the world of which we are surely one now, are a rare breed indeed. That is why top clubs trawl the academies and clubs of the five continents looking for talent, and when they find it are willing to pay megabucks for it. It makes much more footballing and economic sense for clubs such as ours to pay for 1st team ready players rather than take a punt on an academy player who may or may not be up to the required standard and who may cost the club points to find out. It's not going to happen unless an outstanding talent is unearthed and is considered suitable for introduction into the first team.
The academy, in my view, is another revenue stream of the club whereby youngsters are recruited, trained, developed and sold on for a profit and only in the case of rare talent will one be kept on as a regular first team player.
 
Ray78 said:
If they are good enough and show signs of consistency then they would be given a chance. Rony Lopes will be in a similar situation when he does sign for Monaco.
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Except Monaco actually play young players and have proven that they give them a fair crack.
 
BigOscar said:
Except Monaco actually play young players and have proven that they give them a fair crack.
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Only Kurzawa could be classed as a player who has come through their Academy. The rest of their young players have been signed for quite a lot of money.
 
LoveCity said:
There may not be a buy-back clause because apparently relations between club and player (or player + entourage) have broken down pretty badly.

Also, people shouldn't act like this is our fault. He is 19, not 23, and like Denis Suarez has put us in a position where we have to sell or lose him for a compensation fee next summer, because he will not renew his contract. No club playing on a level like ours would make 19-year-old Marcos Lopes a regular - he is talented but by no means a freakishly good young player. They might give him occasional sub appearances and cup games, which we could, but he wants more than that.

21-23 has been a normal age for some of European football's best players of recent generations to break through from a top academy into a top team. I can understand why some might want to leave, but they could also be patient and develop a little more, then have a greater chance when they're 21-23 years old and mature footballers. An 18-20yo is not going to break through at a club of our status unless he is incredibly, ridiculously good. Like Sterling, who is barely older than Lopes.
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As usual from LC, this ^.

It is hard to be patient when your career is only about 10 years long but to come through one of the top academies in the world is not for the faint of heart. I know Denayer probably isn't happy either right now, but I truly believe he will have the better career in part because he stayed with us.
 
Manchester1894 said:
I can't help but feel we failed him on this one and hope we don't repeat the mistake with Denayer.
Carling Cup games need to field at LEAST 5 youth players and see how far it takes us. Last season we didn't give the kids a chance properly IMO. Lopes had a good year away considering he got an injury and was primed to join up this season and at least get a chance to breakthrough. This is the player that Viera said was an example to EVERY player in the academy. Nobody was more profressional or hard-working. We've just let him go?! Disappointed and wish him luck. We'll never know how good or bad he was for us...
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Not having a go. What would you have done different. Giving him cup games this year wouldn't change anything...he would walk away in a year for free. As far as I see it, to keep Lopes we would require one of the following:

Not have signed Sterling
Not sign De Bruyne
Sell Navas
Sell Nasri

I maybe would consider selling Navas and keeping Lopes, but expectations are high this year. We really need to establish ourselves in the top 6 in the world. With that in mind, the prudent course is to keep Navas and Nasri and that means Lopes HAS to be sold because he is not willing to wait a year when one of Navas or Nasri will almost certainly go.
 
LoveCity said:
There may not be a buy-back clause because apparently relations between club and player (or player + entourage) have broken down pretty badly.

Also, people shouldn't act like this is our fault. He is 19, not 23, and like Denis Suarez has put us in a position where we have to sell or lose him for a compensation fee next summer, because he will not renew his contract. No club playing on a level like ours would make 19-year-old Marcos Lopes a regular - he is talented but by no means a freakishly good young player. They might give him occasional sub appearances and cup games, which we could, but he wants more than that.

21-23 has been a normal age for some of European football's best players of recent generations to break through from a top academy into a top team. I can understand why some might want to leave, but they could also be patient and develop a little more, then have a greater chance when they're 21-23 years old and mature footballers. An 18-20yo is not going to break through at a club of our status unless he is incredibly, ridiculously good. Like Sterling, who is barely older than Lopes.
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Good post.
 
JoeMercer'sWay said:
it's unfortunate, but to get through in an attacking midfield role here you have to be exceptional, and he isn't Hazard.

Might be upset now, but it's a good fee, there are players behind him in the queue who have the chance, and who knows, if he really delivers in a couple of years, with someone like Pep at the helm, I'm sure differences can be put aside and he could come back. As it is, he wasn't the most exciting in pre-season, and whilst promising at Lille last season, he didn't make the case for "you really can't ignore me now", and the staff have obviously decided we have better options going forward. It's always a shame when you lose someone close to breaking through, but like Weiss, Guidetti etc. it's just a part of the process and we'll move, there's always someone else.
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Another good post.
 
Ray78 said:
Only Kurzawa could be classed as a player who has come through their Academy. The rest of their young players have been signed for quite a lot of money.
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As has Rony. They've signed young players with little first team experience and then played them, as they will presumably do with him as well. We have no such track record
 
I hope we get a buy back clause but I doubt it will happen. Haven't seen him enough to get a good read on him. Hope we don't look like fools in a few years....
 
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BigOscar said:
As has Rony. They've signed young players with little first team experience and then played them, as they will presumably do with him as well. We have no such track record
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Read LC's post for more clarity.
 
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BigOscar said:
As has Rony. They've signed young players with little first team experience and then played them, as they will presumably do with him as well. We have no such track record
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well I'd rather not play younger players and be in the Champions League and be favourites for our domestic title, than be the definition of a rich man's plaything that went wrong, and now buy talent that gets you Europa League and not near the competition who put their money where their mouth is and win the title.

Guess it's priorities, only reason Monaco do this is because they got upset that they couldn't get a financial advantage and stopped filling their squad with expensive signings a la Moutinho, Rodriguez & Falcao. So they're not some moral compass or shining beacon of light, they've got a little niche that makes them a nice Europa League, non-threatening club. We have bigger ambitions than that.
 
BringBackSwales said:
But isn't that the point, Sterling is not much older BUT the big difference is that he has had a lot more chance to prove himself
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Isn't the point hough that Rony (and any other youth player), doesn't have to convince the match going fan that he is good enough but the professional coaches. Clearly, they (and I use they, as I don't believe it is just Pellers) are making their decision based on what they see day in/day out.

I don't believe Sterling is your run of the mill 20 year old, he is a special talent and probably got his break by convincing others of this.

At this point in time, our young players havn't given sufficient evidence to suggest they are ready IMO
 
Stiff Little Wingers said:
We've had a great start and I agree if the kids are good enough they will come through but how are we going to know they are good enough? Not through training that's for sure. There seem to be 2 ways and we don't use either now.
1. Identify a really good young kid and develop a strategy to bring him through and see how he does. I loved Peter Barnes when I was a kid. He had to break into team with Tueart.,Marsh, Royle,King Colin, Asa etc. He came on a few times as sub and I think I saw his first game when he replaced Tueart and scored v Carlisle I think. Most people knew he was going to be pretty good. Next season we won the LC he played a few more and we knew he was really talented then but sometimes he was inconsistent but great players like Dennis or King Colin, Marsh etc would win us the game anyway. Next season we nearly won the league he was a regular and after that an England player. Same strategy worked with Gary Owen. Other times not so good with Kinsey for example.
Are the blues who don't care about bringing young lads through (and by implication not caring about the City tradition of doing this for so many years) really saying that we could not play Lopes or Denayer for example home to the likes of the bottom 6 at least and have so lilts faith that Kun, Silva, YaYa would not win the game if the youngster had a shocker? Against Watford for example do people think resting Navas, swapping Raheem to the right and giving Lopes a go on the left would have Watford thinking we've got City on toast here. Worst case is he's not good and we ought to still win and best case is we may have a player here. How did Sterling come through at Liverpool? At City according to some he would never have got a game at 17 or whatever because he wasn't as good as Nasri or Silva or Navas Etc!!!

2. The other way is to loan them out to a club and standard where they can actually stand out. I accept now that young lads can be bought young like Joe Hart. He went to Birmingham in the PL, was outstanding and now look at him? I thought Denayer was going this way playing for Celtic in the CL etc and on the odd occasion I saw him, looking so composed and good and for fucks sake playing for a hugely talented Belgium team - thought at least he can get a few games or sub appearances or at least get loaned out to a PL club to really start getting him ready for the first time and what happens / he is loaned out yo God knows where and if I was him I would leave unless there is a promise of first team here next year. Unbelievable decision not to have him in the first team squad this year.

Such good transfer activity this summer yet no sign if any talented young players anywhere near other than Kelechi. I really hope he can be play a few games at the right time this season. I'm not sure about any of the others and haven't seen much but Lopes, Denayer and Kelechi in the squad would have been great for me.

Maybe next year
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Thanks for your detailed response.

The issue I see is that (notwithstanding Chelsea last season, and more down to us falling off dramatically), the top of the league these days is a pretty tight affair and the odd point here or their or goal difference can be the difference betwen being champions and runners up. So I would think City have decided to rule out the league for introducing youth. I see little value coming on for a ten minute cameo if we are 3-4 nil up versus being loaned out and playing lots of full games elsewhere, but that is just my opinion.

That then leaves the cups. I said on this matter last year that if they want to blood youth, then a decision needs to be made to effectively say "were not too fussed" about the CoC for example and we will use that to test the waters. The problem could arise if we get knocked out first game, which then, for the youth, sees their opportunity evaporate for that year.

Another factor will be the expectations of the individuals and how they are managed. This is an equally important factor and something we have no visibility of. I expect some to believe they are the next Messi and want jam today, whilst others may accept they are on a long learning curve and are content to let City develop them at our pace. One thing I honestly believe is that any youth player who leaves us, is leaving a better player than when he arrived.

There appears to be no easy answer, so I am more than comfortable letting those in charge make the call as to when it is right to make the call. It will sit right for some fans and not right with others, but that's how I see it.
 
almir said:
We came to the point where it's hard to see why would any teenager sign for us. I I'd be 15-16years old talented kid with multiple chances to pick the club it wouldn't be City. Apart Chelsea, all big clubs give more chances to their youth than us. Even Real Madrid.
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Maybe another angle would be that the lads more than want to come to City in the knowledge that they are not going to make the first team, but will receive the best coaching avaialble that will give them an excellent career elsewhere?
 
goalmole said:
IMO it's the latter. Said this on here weeks ago and got shot down for my trouble. People seem to think that because we have we have one of the best academies in world football, we are going to be churning out 2 or 3 world class players into the first team every season. The truth is that 2 or 3 every generation would be a fine thing. Player's who we would consider to be good enough to play for the top 10 teams in the world of which we are surely one now, are a rare breed indeed. That is why top clubs trawl the academies and clubs of the five continents looking for talent, and when they find it are willing to pay megabucks for it. It makes much more footballing and economic sense for clubs such as ours to pay for 1st team ready players rather than take a punt on an academy player who may or may not be up to the required standard and who may cost the club points to find out. It's not going to happen unless an outstanding talent is unearthed and is considered suitable for introduction into the first team.
The academy, in my view, is another revenue stream of the club whereby youngsters are recruited, trained, developed and sold on for a profit and only in the case of rare talent will one be kept on as a regular first team player.
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Fully agree mate and I suspect many young lads joining the academy fully know this and are happy to use the best facilities around to develop themselves
 
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