Russian invasion of Ukraine

Uptop said:
I would ask what are the points you are not finding a clear answer too, maybe someone can assist. Some things are undeniable though and that is that Russia is a vicious invader committing heinous war crimes on civilians.

Below is a explanation of the whole situation leading to the current time which simplifies a lot of events; im not an expert or anything but this is my take from reading through multiple sources and im happy to be proven wrong if I have said something incorrect.

In 2013 then pro-russian president Viktor Yanukovych stopped the process of signing an Association agreement with the EU which basically would have started their path to trying to join the EU. This agreement had been overwhelmingly approved by Ukraine's parliament with only their small communist party disagreeing. The sudden change from Yanukovych came after russia started a trade war with ukraine where russia blocked all ukrainian imports which lead to a sharp drop in their economy, pretty clearly this was related to their EU association agreement.

Due to Yanukovych reneging on parliaments agreement there were demonstrations and protests in Kyiv that spread across the whole country. This was the "Euromaiden" uprising you maybe have heard about. This ultimately lead to the collapse of that current government with Yanukovych and his allies fleeing Ukraine (to russia) with a new government being installed by Ukraine's parliament.

Following this in early 2014 is when the "little green men" started to appear in Crimea with sudden support of pro-russian separatists, these are widely believed to be unmarked russian military / wagner groups considering their military equipment available. Ukraine at this point had a pretty small military and had no way to really fight these "separatists" in crimea. Crimean separatists declared independence with a further referendum on joining russia shortly after.

These unmarked soldiers also appeared within the Donbas and Luhansk regions with similar heavily equipped pro-russian separatists behind them which this time Ukraine did fight to a standstill until the Minsk "peace" agreement was made. This mostly ended the conflict but there was constant fighting from 2014 until now.

Fast forward to 2022 and Putin had his troops at the border doing training exercises for months with western intelligence basically all but confirming they were about to invade. Putin using the previous conflict to justify intervention to "save" russians in those regions along with a host of other reasons which dont match reality.

Putin had hoped to quickly overwhelm Ukraine as they had previously done and didnt expect the west to intervene as before. US intelligence has said they were planning to take Kyiv, replace Zelensky and force a new pro-russian puppet on Ukraine while likely annexing at least the coastal regions that they now partially control. Russian forces heading to Kyiv had a lot of riot police forces intended to control civilians and had parade uniforms packed within their supply conveys for after their expected victory. They werent expecting ukraine to stand and fight. If I remember correctly UK and USA had been training ukraine since 2014 for exactly this moment. At this point russia likely knows it has failed and is trying to do anything it can to force a wedge to make some sort of play like a gambler in too deep unwilling to cut their loses which is causing their erratic actions recently. They are running on fumes now while Ukraine is growing in strength as time goes on. Unfortunately many people are still dying.

Nobody can really say for sure exactly what Putin was thinking but I would say it looked like that he wanted to re-instate former USSR/ Russian empire lands and create a singular russian state, wiping out other cultures with a singular russian culture, which is a common nationalist dream that people like Girkin and Dugin also believe in. They seen Ukraine heading towards "the west" (as Ukrainian citizens wanted and was their choice) and knew they had to act now. They wanted to force ukraine under their control before they detached themselves from russia forever.

If they had succeed in ukraine they likely wanted to bring in other former lands including possibly the Baltic nations despite them being in NATO. I really think they thought the west had gotten weak and the USA was too distracted with their own problems to intervene risking any sort of nuclear war, while also heavily underestimating the level of corruptions that has completely rotted russia to the core.

long post.
Click to expand...
Long post, but very informative. Thanks
 
mat said:
The kind of answer I suspected I'd get to my question.

Someone questions sources and automatically called a Putin lover.

There's propaganda on all sides. All I want is facts.

I thought I'd found an 'indepent' source which after some digging turned out to be the Russian version of lord Haw Haw. There's also Ukrainian/Western sources doing the same.

It seems this thread you can't question anything. Just wave the flag you have in your social media bio of the side you've chosen and everyone else is wrong.
Click to expand...

If you’re still questioning what ‘side’ you should be on , it either makes you a Russian bot or a complete plank
 
Uptop said:
I would ask what are the points you are not finding a clear answer too, maybe someone can assist. Some things are undeniable though and that is that Russia is a vicious invader committing heinous war crimes on civilians.

Below is a explanation of the whole situation leading to the current time which simplifies a lot of events; im not an expert or anything but this is my take from reading through multiple sources and im happy to be proven wrong if I have said something incorrect.

In 2013 then pro-russian president Viktor Yanukovych stopped the process of signing an Association agreement with the EU which basically would have started their path to trying to join the EU. This agreement had been overwhelmingly approved by Ukraine's parliament with only their small communist party disagreeing. The sudden change from Yanukovych came after russia started a trade war with ukraine where russia blocked all ukrainian imports which lead to a sharp drop in their economy, pretty clearly this was related to their EU association agreement.

Due to Yanukovych reneging on parliaments agreement there were demonstrations and protests in Kyiv that spread across the whole country. This was the "Euromaiden" uprising you maybe have heard about. This ultimately lead to the collapse of that current government with Yanukovych and his allies fleeing Ukraine (to russia) with a new government being installed by Ukraine's parliament.

Following this in early 2014 is when the "little green men" started to appear in Crimea with sudden support of pro-russian separatists, these are widely believed to be unmarked russian military / wagner groups considering their military equipment available. Ukraine at this point had a pretty small military and had no way to really fight these "separatists" in crimea. Crimean separatists declared independence with a further referendum on joining russia shortly after.

These unmarked soldiers also appeared within the Donbas and Luhansk regions with similar heavily equipped pro-russian separatists behind them which this time Ukraine did fight to a standstill until the Minsk "peace" agreement was made. This mostly ended the conflict but there was constant fighting from 2014 until now.

Fast forward to 2022 and Putin had his troops at the border doing training exercises for months with western intelligence basically all but confirming they were about to invade. Putin using the previous conflict to justify intervention to "save" russians in those regions along with a host of other reasons which dont match reality.

Putin had hoped to quickly overwhelm Ukraine as they had previously done and didnt expect the west to intervene as before. US intelligence has said they were planning to take Kyiv, replace Zelensky and force a new pro-russian puppet on Ukraine while likely annexing at least the coastal regions that they now partially control. Russian forces heading to Kyiv had a lot of riot police forces intended to control civilians and had parade uniforms packed within their supply conveys for after their expected victory. They werent expecting ukraine to stand and fight. If I remember correctly UK and USA had been training ukraine since 2014 for exactly this moment. At this point russia likely knows it has failed and is trying to do anything it can to force a wedge to make some sort of play like a gambler in too deep unwilling to cut their loses which is causing their erratic actions recently. They are running on fumes now while Ukraine is growing in strength as time goes on. Unfortunately many people are still dying.

Nobody can really say for sure exactly what Putin was thinking but I would say it looked like that he wanted to re-instate former USSR/ Russian empire lands and create a singular russian state, wiping out other cultures with a singular russian culture, which is a common nationalist dream that people like Girkin and Dugin also believe in. They seen Ukraine heading towards "the west" (as Ukrainian citizens wanted and was their choice) and knew they had to act now. They wanted to force ukraine under their control before they detached themselves from russia forever.

If they had succeed in ukraine they likely wanted to bring in other former lands including possibly the Baltic nations despite them being in NATO. I really think they thought the west had gotten weak and the USA was too distracted with their own problems to intervene risking any sort of nuclear war, while also heavily underestimating the level of corruptions that has completely rotted russia to the core.

long post.
Click to expand...
Great post.
 
mat said:
The kind of answer I suspected I'd get to my question.

Someone questions sources and automatically called a Putin lover.

There's propaganda on all sides. All I want is facts.

I thought I'd found an 'indepent' source which after some digging turned out to be the Russian version of lord Haw Haw. There's also Ukrainian/Western sources doing the same.

It seems this thread you can't question anything. Just wave the flag you have in your social media bio of the side you've chosen and everyone else is wrong.
Click to expand...
What appears on here is usually then coverd by mainstream media later the same day or the day after.

The only recent 'doubt' coverages were the B2 bomber and the gold teeth stories which were quickly debunked. Everything regarding Ukrainian Army movements, victories and liberations has been spot on. By all means people can question the Ukrainian sources and news reports, but to suggest for a second that the Russians actions have been righteous in this invasion or is justified in any way as a 'counter' to the news reports is going to have you labelled as a Putin/Russian sympathiser, and for good reason.

Anything that tries to paint the Russians in a positive light IS Russian propaganda as they are trying to convince the world they are the good guys and supporting such comments isn't a good look. The Russians have no right or reason to be there and the sooner they are gone the sooner this invasion is over.
 
The ending of the partial mobilisation, I don’t get why Putin is stopping it when they are getting their arses whooped. They were celebrating annexing Kherson a few weeks back and now the main city is being taken back by Ukraine. Is there a realisation that calling up Joe Public to go to the front line has been a disaster for them in keeping the population onside? Are we going to see Putin try make a play for a peace deal in the conning months?

The language NATO came out with outlining that if Russia goes nuclear in Ukraine, its army will be obliterated with conventional NATO weapons hit the right tone. The only way out is to withdraw and try and build some form of consensus for negotiation.
 
Metal Biker said:
What appears on here is usually then coverd by mainstream media later the same day or the day after.

The only recent 'doubt' coverages were the B2 bomber and the gold teeth stories which were quickly debunked. Everything regarding Ukrainian Army movements, victories and liberations has been spot on. By all means people can question the Ukrainian sources and news reports, but to suggest for a second that the Russians actions have been righteous in this invasion or is justified in any way as a 'counter' to the news reports is going to have you labelled as a Putin/Russian sympathiser, and for good reason.

Anything that tries to paint the Russians in a positive light IS Russian propaganda as they are trying to convince the world they are the good guys and supporting such comments isn't a good look. The Russians have no right or reason to be there and the sooner they are gone the sooner this invasion is over.
Click to expand...
Its akin to listening to flat earthers for an alternative view of the globe.
 
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