Russian invasion of Ukraine

[RobMCFC]

China is pissing me off massively in all of this.

The other day, one of their politicians was moaning, trying to say that they were neutral in the war and he couldn’t understand why some countries were talking out against them. The fact that they are “neutral” when one of the sides is bombing the shit out of the other tells you all you need to know about them.

The world is a big place and most countries are connected business-wise, but whatever steps the west can take to distance itself and disengage from China where possible would be a wise move in my opinion.

Same goes for Iran too.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

A greater fanfare might have dissuaded Putin somewhat but the west, particularly the UK and US have been supporting Ukraine since 2014 albeit largely limited to training and some low level bilateral defence agreements such as UK helping to build a naval port. All along the west, particularly again the UK and US, warned Russia that they were committed to Ukraines territorial integrity but of course the policy was one of containment not antagonism. Putin didn’t believe us. I’m not even sure the west believed he would attack in the manner he has until it was too late. Putin assumed the west reliance on his oil, gas and refining capacity would provide a mute response especially with his 3 day war (and let’s face if them oligarchs believe all Russias natural resources are their own). It would all be over before we could do much.

He remains a master strategist.

I don’t disagree with any of that, but when I look back, and I think of things like Litvinenko and Salisbury, and the interference with elections, it was obvious we were dealing with someone who had zero respect for the rules of engagement and was almost certainly a sociopath. I think I, along with many others, engaged in a form of wilful blindness, in failing to face up to that. To apply my mind to it, because it was more expedient to simply put it to the back of our minds.

 

[SilverFox2]

China is pissing me off massively in all of this.

The other day, one of their politicians was moaning, trying to say that they were neutral in the war and he couldn’t understand why some countries were talking out against them. The fact that they are “neutral” when one of the sides is bombing the shit out of the other tells you all you need to know about them.

The world is a big place and most countries are connected business-wise, but whatever steps the west can take to distance itself and disengage from China where possible would be a wise move in my opinion.

Same goes for Iran too.

Do you think that Trump banning Chinese electrical components and goods had an effect on their thinking?
After all it turned out to be the Soviets who benefitted from this blame culture.

 

[RobMCFC]

Do you think that Trump banning Chinese electrical components and goods had an effect on their thinking?
After all it turned out to be the Soviets who benefitted from this blame culture.

I've no idea, but I'm uncomfortable with our government doing nothing.

Obviously, we have no idea what is being said in the diplomatic back channels, but I think it is important that collectively, the west demonstrates that China's behaviour is not acceptable. They are a major nation with the ability to influence Russia, yet seem happy to let the destruction continue other than the odd token comment about supporting Ukraine's territorial rights.

Are we all OK with this stance?

 

[CTID1977]

 

[jrb]

CNN International.

2 hr 58 min ago

Ukrainian forces face "heavy losses" in Bakhmut and Soledar, presidential adviser says​

From CNN's Josh Pennington

Oleksii Arestovych in Kyiv on October 10. (Oleksii Chumachenko/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)

Heavy Russian attacks on the eastern Ukrainian cities of Bakhmut and Soledar "smack of desperation, reminiscent of suicide bombers," according to a Ukrainian presidential adviser.

Oleksiy Arestovych was speaking during his nightly livestream on Feygin Live, a pro-Ukrainian channel.

As fighting continues in the area, Ukrainian forces are experiencing heavy troop losses, Arestovych said, adding "[the enemy] is losing more, of course, but we have heavy losses. It's a very serious fight."

 

[aguero93:20]

The Americans must be loving trying out all this technology they’ve spent billions on, actually seeing it working in the field and seeing how it measures up, they will be learning valuable lessons for the next big one against China.

Liking that

 

[metalblue]

I don’t disagree with any of that, but when I look back, and I think of things like Litvinenko and Salisbury, and the interference with elections, it was obvious we were dealing with someone who had zero respect for the rules of engagement and was almost certainly a sociopath. I think I, along with many others, engaged in a form of wilful blindness, in failing to face up to that. To apply my mind to it, because it was more expedient to simply put it to the back of our minds.

I fully agree with all of that mate. Specifically the poisonings and how we, as individuals were complicit - but that was really the whole raisin d’etre behind the electoral interference. As a consequence that was, and is, much harder to stop as it’s the spreading of disinformation via social media platforms, if it appeals to your own thought process you are unlikely to challenge it. You’ve only got to look at our politics subforum to see how people will post anything that suits their agenda without any form of fact checking - it then becomes repeated and the lie becomes accepted as “fact”.

We are our own worst enemy.

 

[nmc]

I don’t disagree with any of that, but when I look back, and I think of things like Litvinenko and Salisbury, and the interference with elections, it was obvious we were dealing with someone who had zero respect for the rules of engagement and was almost certainly a sociopath. I think I, along with many others, engaged in a form of wilful blindness, in failing to face up to that. To apply my mind to it, because it was more expedient to simply put it to the back of our minds.

it actually a bit darker than that in reality…. Many senior and influential people in our society - including politicians- lose all sense of responsibility and moral judgement where - money and wealth are on offer…. It’s sad that our values are so easily bought and compromised but, the network of oligarchs in London had swathes of the establishment firmly in their back pocket for years…. and were able to influence all manner of decisions. Looking back the UK Government’s response to Salisbury couldn’t have been More inept - until you realise who was in bed with whom.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Seems obvious looking back, but so many of us, myself included, decided to look the other way. Terrible business. Feel bad about that.

Interesting that they wouldn’t give Ukraine any help, whatsoever. At least they’ve learnt from past decisions.