Sarah Everard murder | Wayne Couzens given whole-life sentence

Blue Mist said:
@youngbob there is a lot wrong with this case but you seem to have a unnatural hatred of every male police officer. That is what baffles me.
I could have a total hatred of nurses after what happened to me and a family member... but I don't. I am a rational person and I accept that one ward in Salford Royal had problems but, 99.9% of nurses in that hospital and throughout the UK try their very best and are the backbone of a brilliant service.
I know some men treat women appallingly, they always have and sadly they always will but that does not mean the majority of men do. It is the same with the police. Some will abuse their power, look at how away fans are treated but that does not mean all cops are bastards.
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You're making a lot of assumptions about me and it's preventing us from having any kind of discussion.

There's a huge leap of logic you have to make to assume that me thinking the Met (and the police nationally) are an inherently corrupt organisation is akin to me believing that all cops are bastards. As I said previously to you, I believe in a "police force", just not the model we currently we have. One that (by an unfortunate default) acts in the interests of the state above all else, one that attracts more and more monsters into its ranks, one that closes ranks and lies on a frequent basis to protect itself. These claims all have ready-made examples I could search for and serve up to you - ones you'd already be aware of, I expect.

The police are an inherently racist and misogynistic organisation nationally because we're an inherently racist and misogynistic society with an inherently racist and misogynistic state. Not this government specifically -- it's a problem we've always had. The advice given by police in the last 24 hours, to shout for help or wave down a bus when being questioned by a potentially rogue officer, shows how out of touch they are and how incapable they are of serving us in their current set-up. The arrests on Clapham Common, which I've already mentioned, were an example of unnecessary excessive force at the time and now look considerably worse considering Sarah was murdered by a serving officer who falsely arrested her under the same false justification of "breaching COVID restrictions".

I'm not in the interest of blaming individuals or shouting "ACAB" in order to solve society's problems. I'd never shout at an individual to solve racism, for instance, because causes of bigotry are manifold and widespread. Saying things like "ACAB", in my opinion, ignores the genuine systemic issues that have allowed the police force to become what it is. In the same way that people aren't born evil, people generally don't enter the police force to do bad things, but they become evil in an environment that encourages and fosters that kind of behaviour. Wayne Couzens is a rare and horrendous case but he was not an accident - he was created and formed in an image that the Met (and his colleagues) found to be acceptable. There were cases like him beforehand and there will be cases like him after today.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
Society is not just murder, or “safety,” it is a whole host of factors.
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Which I’m looking forward to being informed of.

70 years ago gay men were chemically castrated for being wrong un’s on behalf of society. I don’t think society was better then or 50 years before that when orphans ended up in the work house for the betterment of society.

Infact I’d go as far as saying I don’t think there’s any metric whereby society was “better” previously.
 
SWP's back said:
Which I’m looking forward to being informed of.

70 years ago gay men were chemically castrated for being wrong un’s on behalf of society. I don’t think society was better then or 50 years before that when orphans ended up in the work house for the betterment of society.

Infact I’d go as far as saying I don’t think there’s any metric whereby society was “better” previously.
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You think people talk to each other better now? People are kinder, more thoughtful than they were when you grew up? You think the politics of today are better than they have been and that the deep divisions being created within society are just the usual?

If so, I’m glad for you.

Sure, plenty has improved, especially in the treatment of anyone who is not a (supposedly) heterosexual white male, but those issues don’t paper over the other cracks and fissures, not to mention the widespread decay within society today.
 
youngbob said:
It's a rare day under heaven that I ever find myself agreeing with Dan fucking Hodges.

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Yeah, I kind of zoned out at the ‘flag down a bus’ solution to the problem. It seems that the only answer is to put the onus on women ‘to do something’, and not the police or men ‘to do something’. The police culture, it’s institutional biases should be the place to start.

The one positive I guess is that the question is being raised and the issue discussed and progress can be made if we keep the pressure on. Maybe I‘m an optimist, but I think we are more receptive to change.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
You think people talk to each other better now? People are kinder, more thoughtful than they were when you grew up? You think the politics of today are better than they have been and that the deep divisions being created within society are just the usual?

If so, I’m glad for you.

Sure, plenty has improved, especially in the treatment of anyone who is not a (supposedly) heterosexual white male, but those issues don’t paper over the other cracks and fissures, not to mention the widespread decay within society today.
Click to expand...

Yes. I watched the Yorkshire Ripper documentary on Netflix and it was a shock to see how grim things used to be, how old people in their fifties looked, how shabby the towns were. And the police attitudes were archaic. It was astonishing how uniform every senior police officers outlook was. Everyone was white, male, old, and brought up with the same attitudes and prejudices. The attitude where a woman in a pub was clearly a woman of loose morals. The fixation that all the victims were prostitutes. There was no creative thinking, no ability to see things differently because they couldn’t. That was a decaying society.

So, yeah, things are much better today.
 
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