Scottish Independence

[Coatigan]

The SNP vote amounted to 30.65% of the Scottish Electorate, how does that give them a mandate to leave the Union?

It doesn't. And nobody claimed it did.

Good selectiveness though.

 

[Coatigan]

Oh wow.
The deficit, central bank and currency, shape of the economy, both tax plans and revenue. There is some really interesting initiatives on sustainable energy but the Scottish farmed salmon industry is abhorrent and is a big revenue earner so I would like a clearer statement on how that will be policed in future. Transition plans including the border solution and the solution round the carve up (or not) of the national debt. The decomposition of GERS to make it believable. The entry path back into the EU. So many questions and so much that is up for discussion and argument. I can see an independent, successful sustainable Scotland but the journey from here to that vision is what still troubles me. But the U.K. and it’s new values are not what I recognise so like many Scots, the way I feel at present, I would pay good money to break away from that.

Interesting. I know a good few like you tbh. And similarly, many have since shifted too, much like you suggest.

I was at the other end of the reasoning at the time. I didn't have an issue with 'the answers' to the practicalities. I was happy they'd all been considered, at length, professionally, and put to the public, that was enough for me. I am no expert and it would be naive of me to pretend to sctatch the surface and make judgements on that. Some claims i found quite believable, some logical but perhaps wishful. But to decide how theyd all play out, not my place. I thought that was the biggest success of the No campaign, (and used since in brexit politics) convincing the public we were experts at everything. Regularly hearing people arguing national gdp, price of oil, etc etc, from bitty selective figures from the media and politicians.
It was also all too easy for the no campaign, to do just that, say no to everything. No, that doesnt work, no this isnt right, no you cant be trusted. Of course the public will be cautious and sceptical when hearing that. And the whole, there is no plan b. Of course there is a plan B, etc etc etc. Not expecting it to be revealed though, as not to affect plan A, and dilute the case for it to the public.


My reservations, were instead, purely on principle, emotional and philosophical reasoning/attachment etc etc.

And that is where i think brexit, and the fallout, has brought as much of a shift to the concept of the union, and unionism, as it has to the tangible consequences. The recent GE result only adds to that.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Interesting. I know a good few like you tbh. And similarly, many have since shifted too, much like you suggest.

I was at the other end of the reasoning at the time. I didn't have an issue with 'the answers' to the practicalities. I was happy they'd all been considered, at length, professionally, and put to the public, that was enough for me. I am no expert and it would be naive of me to pretend to sctatch the surface and make judgements on that. Some claims i found quite believable, some logical but perhaps wishful. But to decide how theyd all play out, not my place. I thought that was the biggest success of the No campaign, (and used since in brexit politics) convincing the public we were experts at everything. Regularly hearing people arguing national gdp, price of oil, etc etc, from bitty selective figures from the media and politicians.
It was also all too easy for the no campaign, to do just that, say no to everything. No, that doesnt work, no this isnt right, no you cant be trusted. Of course the public will be cautious and sceptical when hearing that. And the whole, there is no plan b. Of course there is a plan B, etc etc etc. Not expecting it to be revealed though, as not to affect plan A, and dilute the case for it to the public.


My reservations, were instead, purely on principle, emotional and philosophical reasoning/attachment etc etc.

And that is where i think brexit, and the fallout, has brought as much of a shift to the concept of the union, and unionism, as it has to the tangible consequences. The recent GE result only adds to that.

It wasn't all on 'mechanics' though. I had/have an emotional tie to the Union which is hard to explain and is probably illogical but is rooted in the last centuries history of European warfare and the loss of family members who gave their lives at Ypres and the Somme. Thats also goes to explain an attachment to the EU as an entity that will prevent anything like that happening again.

The last three years politics have opened my eyes to what the Union is though and what modern day UK is and its really pretty ugly. So that emotional tie is far weaker that it was and when we get another referendum (which I am pretty convinced we will in whatever form) it will mainly be the mechanics of it that I look at and I will start from a position of 'why not' rather than 'not likely'.

 

[blue cigar]

In 2014 I was very anti snp and I dependence, however, the brexit shitshow and sturgeon have made me want to break away, as an Englishman living up here that is a rare thing.
The transition would be messy but is there a way that this could happen in time to negate the effects of brexit and rejoin the EU?
If there's going to be pain then let's go all in and go independent?

 

[robbieh]

My question is not about independence but thought rather than create a new thread..

Why do vast swathes of the working class in England regularly vote Tory whereas in Scotland they don't?

 

[George Hannah]

My question is not about independence but thought rather than create a new thread..

Why do vast swathes of the working class in England regularly vote Tory whereas in Scotland they don't?

They don't hate the English.

 

[robbieh]

They don't hate the English.

You might want to edit that out as it has nothing to do with my question.

 

[George Hannah]

You might want to edit that out as it has nothing to do with my question.

Really? With respect, the SNP is the ideal vehicle for the traditional Scottish working class to ventilate its anti-English prejudice, particularly with the pro-Brexit alternatives on offer there. The supporters of the traditional left on both sides of the border also share an antipathy to 'metropolitan socialist' ideology which in England had no other place to go.

 

[robbieh]

Really? With respect, the SNP is the ideal vehicle for the traditional Scottish working class to ventilate its anti-English prejudice, particularly with the pro-Brexit alternatives on offer there. The supporters of the traditional left on both sides of the border also share an antipathy to 'metropolitan socialist' ideology which in England had no other place to go.

Fair enough. Didn't get who they were in your original post. Missed the irony!

 

[George Hannah]

It doesn't. And nobody claimed it did. Good selectiveness though.

I think they have, bundled up with other factors. It's a key issue insofar as GE results are marshalled as evidence for independence. Not every vote for SNP is a separatist vote, there is much else in the SNP offer which appeals - nor least their hostility to the English.