Scottish Independence

[Coatigan]

My point is that unionists felt safe voting SNP in all those elections because they knew an independence referendum was not in their gift. I believe this should be a potential outcome that is known before people cast their ballot.

I can not comprehend how anyone, unionist or otherwisw might not have known, given how clear they have been about it, how clear opposition parties have been with their threats pointing it out constantly, and all the repeat complaints about that being 'the only thing the snp focus on'. There was zero doubt.

Edit. 'Oh sorry Boris, we didn't realize you were going to pursue brexit now you've won a majority, can we wait 5 years till the next general election, then tell us again, and we'll know we are then voting for it'.

yeah, might just work. if VAR oversaw politics!

 

[hgblue]

I can not comprehend how anyone, unionist or otherwisw might not have known, given how clear they have been about it, how clear opposition parties have been with their threats pointing it out constantly, and all the repeat complaints about that being 'the only thing the snp focus on'. There was zero doubt.

Edit. 'Oh sorry Boris, we didn't realize you were going to pursue brexit now you've won a majority, can we wait 5 years till the next general election, then tell us again, and we'll know we are then voting for it'.

yeah, might just work. if VAR oversaw politics!

Just my opinion bud, but if the SNP want to point to a specific mandate for a referendum that outcome should a specific possibility when people vote. For example, how many unionists voted SNP on Thursday because they wanted to stop Brexit? I’m not based up in Scotland so I may be way off beam, but the SNP message to me seemed to be ‘stop Brexit’?

 

[blueparrot]

Just my opinion bud, but if the SNP want to point to a specific mandate for a referendum that outcome should a specific possibility when people vote. For example, how many unionists voted SNP on Thursday because they wanted to stop Brexit? I’m not based up in Scotland so I may be way off beam, but the SNP message to me seemed to be ‘stop Brexit’?

Thats, one reason but some of us have voted for them for years now, simply because they are a left of centre, but fairly paragmatic almost in a third way sort of politics home for what were Bairite or even more traditional Labour voters. Labour voters that were once guaranteed labour mps for Westminster. Remember after devolution the Scottish voting system was designed to compensate for a fear it would constantly return Labour first ministers. The SNP have firmly planted their tanks on what was once safe Labour (and some Liberal)heartlands.
The trick for the SNP is to work out how many would translate to a Yes vote because Sturgeon will want to be fairly certain of winning if and when she goes for it.

 

[hgblue]

Thats, one reason but some of us have voted for them for years now, simply because they are a left of centre, but fairly paragmatic almost in a third way sort of politics home for what were Bairite or even more traditional Labour voters. Labour voters that were once guaranteed labour mps for Westminster. Remember after devolution the Scottish voting system was designed to compensate for a fear it would constantly return Labour first ministers. The SNP have firmly planted their tanks on what was once safe Labour (and some Liberal)heartlands.
The trick for the SNP is to work out how many would translate to a Yes vote because Sturgeon will want to be fairly certain of winning if and when she goes for it.

Yep, that’s what I’m driving at, I’m just not explaining myself very well. I think there should be a Scottish Parliamentary election where the SNP say if we gain enough seats in this election there will definitely be a referendum. Then unionists will know they have to vote for a party thats pro union. If the SNP then gain enough votes they should have the power to call a referendum without needing the permission of the UK government.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Just my opinion bud, but if the SNP want to point to a specific mandate for a referendum that outcome should a specific possibility when people vote. For example, how many unionists voted SNP on Thursday because they wanted to stop Brexit? I’m not based up in Scotland so I may be way off beam, but the SNP message to me seemed to be ‘stop Brexit’?

I suspect the main attraction of the SNP last week was that they are not led by corbyn or Boris, rather than the ringing endorsement of independence that the SNP are trying to portray.

 

[blueparrot]

Yep, that’s what I’m driving at, I’m just not explaining myself very well. I think there should be a Scottish Parliamentary election where the SNP say if we gain enough seats in this election there will definitely be a referendum. Then unionists will know they have to vote for a party thats pro union. If the SNP then gain enough votes they should have the power to call a referendum without needing the permission of the UK government.

Sounds fair, there is an election 2021, think they should wait until then myself , plus we'll have a better idea where Brexit is heading, My suspicion is she knows she won't get one granted before then anyway. She is pushing it now so she can say to her more hardline supporters and Scots in general I'm trying ,Westminster is blocking it, while at the same time using it to push Boris for a bit more devolution and possibly a bit of N.Irelands brexit deal, just my guess though.AS I said she's not stupid and will use what she has to kep her members on board while compromising to keep voters onside too. A trick I think Boris is attempting too and Labour need to learn..

 

[Gabriel]

Why not? It was a statement prior to the referendum defining the timeframe irrespective of the result, agreed by both sides. It is highly relevant as far as the Tories are concerned. It will be the principal reason given why a referendum won't be on the government order paper in the foreseeable future.

Of as much value as the then prime minister saying a vote to remain was the only way to guarantee Scotland’s continued membership of the European Union. It’s politically expedient to recall individual sound bites, but they are not agreements and mean nothing for either side.

 

[Coatigan]

Yep, that’s what I’m driving at, I’m just not explaining myself very well. I think there should be a Scottish Parliamentary election where the SNP say if we gain enough seats in this election there will definitely be a referendum. Then unionists will know they have to vote for a party thats pro union. If the SNP then gain enough votes they should have the power to call a referendum without needing the permission of the UK government.

I think i've already said i believe that is what Will happen, and what the snp will aim for. And i can see why that makes sensd too, all round probably.

But it doesn't change the fact that it is not what 'needs' to happen. in reality, she can call for one at any moment she so chooses, and no interpretation of the percentages changes that.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think their preparation towards the 2014 Referendum was excellent.

https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

They put the hard work in and looked at the ins-and-outs of everything.

But people still voted NO.

Johnson won’t allow it to be even voted on in the Commons for a few years yet and by then, as you say, a good Brexit could sway a lot where the SNP might not even push for it because their popularity may diminish.

I thought the initial pitch was full of holes so I voted no. I am far more minded to vote yes this time but they have to make the argument better and more convincing from an economic and implementation perspective.
It remains to be seen how good or bad a Johnston government will be. All I can say is that if he continues to act as he has in the last 12 months. There will be a second referendum within 2 years.

 

[George Hannah]

Of as much value as the then prime minister saying a vote to remain was the only way to guarantee Scotland’s continued membership of the European Union. It’s politically expedient to recall individual sound bites, but they are not agreements and mean nothing for either side.

Such soundbytes do have real meaning in the current context. It will be offered by the UK governnment as the principal justification for not enabling a second referendum and as such will almost certainly receive support from all the non-nationalist parties. The political expedience of those in power is political reality.