Scottish Independence

[joe123]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....at-in-scotland-over-eu-membership-letter/amp/

One diplomat said it and was subsequently fired.

They also spent all day begging someone at the EU to do the light show.

Does a light show mean anything anyway ahah?

Let’s be clear, Cameron promised an IndyRef in 2010 and it took 4 years. Let’s presume Johnson even allows one, when he inevitably wins another majority in 2024. And let’s presume he does it quicker than Cameron and we get another IndyRef in 2026. This is entirely unlikely and won’t happen but for arguments sake let’s say that happens. We’d have left the EU and been out of the transition stage for several years.

Joining the EU isn’t done over night and it’s impossible for Scotland to join the EU on the UK’s prior terms, to make it A) favourable for Scotland and B) an immediate thing. The likelihood is, even if Scotland does have another IndyRef ref (unlikely) and even if there was a vote for independence (unlikely considering its polling at near 50/50 on the day we’ve left the EU), it’s likely Scotland will go several years completely on it it’s own.

Sturgeon has purposefully given no detail on a boarder, on currency, on trading relationships with the UK, on whether they’d be WTO with everyone else etc. because she knows it’s fucking bleak and a bad picture for Scotland.

There are people on this thread, who have been in the Brexit thread for three years, telling people it’s an awful idea and would be terrible for British businesses.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....at-in-scotland-over-eu-membership-letter/amp/

One diplomat said it and was subsequently fired.

They also spent all day begging someone at the EU to do the light show.

Does a light show mean anything anyway ahah?

Let’s be clear, Cameron promised an IndyRef in 2010 and it took 4 years. Let’s presume Johnson even allows one, when he inevitably wins another majority in 2024. And let’s presume he does it quicker than Cameron and we get another IndyRef in 2026. This is entirely unlikely and won’t happen but for arguments sake let’s say that happens. We’d have left the EU and been out of the transition stage for several years.

Joining the EU isn’t done over night and it’s impossible for Scotland to join the EU on the UK’s prior terms, to make it A) favourable for Scotland and B) an immediate thing. The likelihood is, even if Scotland does have another IndyRef ref (unlikely) and even if there was a vote for independence (unlikely considering its polling at near 50/50 on the day we’ve left the EU), it’s likely Scotland will go several years completely on it it’s own.

Sturgeon has purposefully given no detail on a boarder, on currency, on trading relationships with the UK, on whether they’d be WTO with everyone else etc. because she knows it’s fucking bleak and a bad picture for Scotland.

There are people on this thread, who have been in the Brexit thread for three years, telling people it’s an awful idea and would be terrible for British businesses. Well what the fuck do you think Scotland pulling out of the UK will be?

What will happen to Scottish business when they have to change currency, have a border (there will needs to be one for MFN), where they lose the funding for the NHS up there? Where they can no longer use the UK’s infrastructure?

Brexit is a walk in the park compared to what Scottish independence would be for their country.

The same people who have said many times that Cameron should never have called the referendum and there was lack of detail are calling for Sturgeon to do worse and without even confirming what fucking currency, border or central bank they’ll use.

It’s madness and will destroy the lives of Scottish people.

But it’s alright, just give them all a free Braveheart DVD in the post to cheer them up, because the SNP think they’re that stupid.

After your Road to Damascus moment on Brexit I’m surprised you would make an economic case - it’s evidently about more than that. I’d argue they already have a mandate to ask the question again, but should wisely bide their time, see Brexit go badly and both Scottish people and the EU would be sympathetic as they’re a special case. If by some miracle Brexit sees Scotland become wildly successful then the idea will be shelved, but I don’t think anyone really thinks that’s happening. Most likely scenario is we’re similar to now and they can say Westminster continues to ignore them. Independence will happen at some point, as will be their right

 

[blueinsa]

"must stop Brexit.......we can't break the union up"

UK leaves the EU.

"Must now fight for Scottish independence and the break up of the UK"

Funny lot on here.

 

[Metal Biker]

I feel for all the Scottish voters who voted to stay in the UK AND voted for the UK to leave the EU whose voices and opinions are continuously and routinely ignored.

 

[Ban-jani]

After your Road to Damascus moment on Brexit I’m surprised you would make an economic case - it’s evidently about more than that. I’d argue they already have a mandate to ask the question again, but should wisely bide their time, see Brexit go badly and both Scottish people and the EU would be sympathetic as they’re a special case. If by some miracle Brexit sees Scotland become wildly successful then the idea will be shelved, but I don’t think anyone really thinks that’s happening. Most likely scenario is we’re similar to now and they can say Westminster continues to ignore them. Independence will happen at some point, as will be their right

I’m not sure what road to Damascus moment you’re referring to. I’m a remain voter and always would be. Whilst we must hold the government to account over the next phase, I just don’t think continuing the arguments of the last 3 years is worthy of anyone’s time.

Your post really has little to do with mine and I’m unsure of your point. The mandate from the Scottish people was set in 2014 and I don’t believe in rerunning referenda until one side gets what they wish. It’s terribly irresponsible and thrusts whole geographical regions into being unstable.

The SNP and their followers are but a blip in the history of the UK and I’ll be damned if their nationalist, English hating, detail lacking screeches break up the union.

Now if you want to debate the merits of breaking up the union, I’m here for you.

 

[Ban-jani]

I feel for all the Scottish voters who voted to stay in the UK AND voted for the UK to leave the EU whose voices and opinions are continuously and routinely ignored.

Roughly 40% of them who don’t exist, apparently. Then you factor in the rest who voted remain but would never vote to break up the union. Those too are ignored and the loud minority continue to screech.

 

[Ban-jani]

But you are certain they will.

Absolutely certain.

The Spanish diplomat who penned the letter to Holyrood, saying no veto would come, was fired immediately and Spain distances themselves from it.

If you want to debate what an independent Scotland will look like now, I’m here for you, but my main point with the SNP is, they are a minor blemish on centuries of unionism and they will be soon long gone. This isn’t the withdrawal from something that was supposed to be a trading block, this is the destruction of a state and they have no historical right to do so. Those who pushed for independence will be looked on as extremists by history.

Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Absolutely certain.

The Spanish diplomat who penned the letter to Holyrood, saying no veto would come, was fired immediately and Spain distances themselves from it.

If you want to debate what an independent Scotland will look like now, I’m here for you, but my main point with the SNP is, they are a minor blemish on centuries of unionism and they will be soon long gone. This isn’t the withdrawal from something that was supposed to be a trading block, this is the destruction of a state and they have no historical right to do so. Those who pushed for independence will be looked on as extremists by history.

Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

Your view is simplistic. There are Scots who are Unionist by nature like me who are fucking livid about 1) being asked to vote No as it was the surest way to remain in the EU 2) being taken out of the EU despite an overwhelming number of Scots who wished to Remain. We are not 'Nat' brave hearts but are sick and tired of being governed from Westminster by parties we did not support. That goes back decades.

Sturgeon needs to spell out how Scotland can transition to independence, you are absolutely correct about that. But you know what mate, the more that people bleat on about us having no right to a second referendum and how we are all 'brave heart' loonies, the more likely it is that Scots will vote with their hearts rather than their heads and the Union will be broken up. It is not a Union of equals it is a Union that is dominated by the country that has the most MP's and as long as those countries have very different political ideals, the more inevitable it is that independence will be the result. That is the underlying truth of the situation. And calling out the SNP as a minor blemish is simply naive. They are doing what they were established to do and the people of Scotland seem to like the way they are doing it.

 

[blueinsa]

Roughly 40% of them who don’t exist, apparently. Then you factor in the rest who voted remain but would never vote to break up the union. Those too are ignored and the loud minority continue to screech.

Don't forget the kids and all those who didn't vote.... ;-)

 

[KS55]

Your view is simplistic. There are Scots who are Unionist by nature like me who are fucking livid about 1) being asked to vote No as it was the surest way to remain in the EU 2) being taken out of the EU despite an overwhelming number of Scots who wished to Remain. We are not 'Nat' brave hearts but are sick and tired of being governed from Westminster by parties we did not support. That goes back decades.

Sturgeon needs to spell out how Scotland can transition to independence, you are absolutely correct about that. But you know what mate, the more that people bleat on about us having no right to a second referendum and how we are all 'brave heart' loonies, the more likely it is that Scots will vote with their hearts rather than their heads and the Union will be broken up. It is not a Union of equals it is a Union that is dominated by the country that has the most MP's and as long as those countries have very different political ideals, the more inevitable it is that independence will be the result. That is the underlying truth of the situation. And calling out the SNP as a minor blemish is simply naive. They are doing what they were established to do and the people of Scotland seem to like the way they are doing it.

Most of the objections to the state of our union could be addressed by a federal Britain, with 4 equal country parliaments, with equal budgets per head, tho' Scotland would lose some funding. Some have argued that a greater degree of devolution would solve the probs, but England needs representation.
What do unionists think of a federal system?

 

[Ban-jani]

Your view is simplistic. There are Scots who are Unionist by nature like me who are fucking livid about 1) being asked to vote No as it was the surest way to remain in the EU 2) being taken out of the EU despite an overwhelming number of Scots who wished to Remain. We are not 'Nat' brave hearts but are sick and tired of being governed from Westminster by parties we did not support. That goes back decades.

Sturgeon needs to spell out how Scotland can transition to independence, you are absolutely correct about that. But you know what mate, the more that people bleat on about us having no right to a second referendum and how we are all 'brave heart' loonies, the more likely it is that Scots will vote with their hearts rather than their heads and the Union will be broken up. It is not a Union of equals it is a Union that is dominated by the country that has the most MP's and as long as those countries have very different political ideals, the more inevitable it is that independence will be the result. That is the underlying truth of the situation. And calling out the SNP as a minor blemish is simply naive. They are doing what they were established to do and the people of Scotland seem to like the way they are doing it.

You’re absolutely right it’s not a union of equals, it’s a union heavily favouring Scotland at each Scottish vote is worth more than an English one, due to representation and population size. Your vote up there is more powerful than mine, you have more money spent on you, on average, than I do on me and you have your own Parliament, representing just 5 million people, that has devolved powers, that I do not have, living in the north of England.

So you’re spot on, it’s not equal.

Well it’s tough shit that we’ve voted to leave a trading bloc, you voted to stay in the UK and you were told that a vote to leave the UK was a vote to leave the EU. That’s still true and it’s true today. You’ll be in neither of you go independent, neither.

Had you voted to be independent in 2014, you’d have been in neither for years to come too, probably still now, if you hadn’t rejoined the UK.

Every single argument you have ever made about Brexit applies to the Indy point, only times it by ten.

It’s Brexit on steroids and it will destroy lives. The SNP purposefully give little detail on what a post Indy Scotland will look like, it’s a tactic because they know it’s not good.

I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly be for Independence for Scotland but against Brexit. It’s the biggest hypocrisy in the history of politics.

The only reason people could have this view is because they hate England and have a fetish for Brussels. It’s mind boggling nonsense and thankfully you do not have a cat in hell’s chance of getting it.