That is exactly how many of us feel. Its exacerbated by our very different choice of parliaments as well so the differences between the two countries is growing ever larger. I voted No in the initial referendum and was strongly opposed to Independence. The last few years has changed my view and I would now approach a second referendum with a far more open mind.I can fully understand their sense of betrayal due to the fact that one of the main unionist arguments in 2014 was that a No vote meant staying in the EU.
@Ban-jani, this is what I said
this is what you responded
the point I was making was completely to do with the Scottish Referendum and the democratic right of the Scottish people to hold one. I'm sure you know that the only way that such a referendum can be established as legal is if a bill is passed in the HoC. The HoC is currently made up of: 533 English MPs, 40 Welsh, 59 Scottish, 18 N Ireland. So, how does Scotland get a referendum? They need the Westminster parliament to pass a section 30 order that temporarily lifts any restriction on the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum. Thats what Sturgeon wrote to Johnson about a couple of weeks ago. Johnson refused, and there is nothing to stop him refusing every time he is asked, irrespective of what polls show in Scotland.
So there is a very possible scenario that no matter how many times Scotland asks for a referendum it will be refused because of the inability to get a section 30 bill through a parliament that is dominated in numbers by English MP's. That has been the case since 1654 when England had 372 MP's to Scotlands 30. So how does Scotland get its say in a Parliament where its MP's are outnumbered 10:1? Answer. Only with the permission of an England dominated HoC.
I'm not talking about the Barnett formula or any other distraction, I'm talking purely about if the Scottish People want to leave the United Kingdom. So you see I wasn't insulting anyone.
The same people supporting the remain campaign will be supporting the campaign for Scottish independence in general, this thread will now grow as big as the Brexit one. Same battle different battlefield.
That is exactly how many of us feel. Its exacerbated by our very different choice of parliaments as well so the differences between the two countries is growing ever larger. I voted No in the initial referendum and was strongly opposed to Independence. The last few years has changed my view and I would now approach a second referendum with a far more open mind.
The point I was trying to make earlier that got jumped on was exactly that. That as Westminster HoC is constructed as it is and remains responsible for the fabric of the U.K. and our Foreign policy, how can an individual country other than England make its voice heard on any of those matters?There is that. And then there is the far more fundamental principle/question, that has likely always existed, but the brexit issue has really hammered home. Is Scotland ever going to have any meaningful say in anything of signicance as a part of the UK? that really has been the SNP's raison d'etre, and it is what they are drilling into on the back of it. And it gets harder and harder to argue.
Once you believe the answer to that to be no, then it is a case of, is it worth accepting that, to be part of the union, whether it is for emotional/historic attachment, sociological, or economic reasons.
Brexit again touches all 3. As societies go, it is obvious they are pulling in quite opposite directions, and that is what the SNP are playing at with their theatrics of the candles, flags outside holyrood, but even the messages of inclusivity and welcome, in contrast to the outbursts seen across england. They are merely picking out the differences and parading them to the public. The economic case is one that people rightly will argue, and is yet to be made, and may well be the make or break of it all. Again, if brexit negatively affects everyone's econoomy, and given any feeling of above that it was forced on scotland, then that will probably be the focus, rather than the more concrete questions.
Re the emotional attachemnt, the narratives of Boris refusing what the elected parliament that represents the people is requesting, and even more broadly, the feeling of 'we dont want the moaning better-off jocks anyway, know your place etc etc' which is very noticeable in the media, both formal and social) is what will be lapped up by the snp.
So me, i can only see one direction for now, and those economic arguements, well who can say if they would be enough in the context of all the rest.
You were a little fortunate today mate. If Hogg hadn’t dropped that ball....Think I’ll be observing this thread a lot from here on in.
Some strong opinions being offered as emphatic facts already.
It’s different but there are parallels already with what was on offer in the Brexit thread pre Brexit.
Some very interesting insights from our Scottish pals. They do have their ear to the ground. Mightn’t be a bad idea to listen carefully to what they have to say.
Couldn’t believe it.You were a little fortunate today mate. If Hogg hadn’t dropped that ball....
Early days mate.Couldn’t believe it.
We won’t be ripping any trees up this season.
I strongly opposed Scottish independence in 2014 and supported Remain in 2016 because I believed then, and still do, that the UK is stronger as a union of 4 home nations within the European Union. With us out of the EU, against the will of 62% of the Scottish population, I can fully understand their sense of betrayal due to the fact that one of the main unionist arguments in 2014 was that a No vote meant staying in the EU. So this time round I believe they should be given the opportunity for another referendum during the life of this parliament and although I would be disappointed if they chose to leave I wouldn't blame them if they did.