Serious question relating to us and FFP(update P17)

Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

I'm no cynic said:
Threats of reducing the supply of oil from Abu Dhabi to Europe might swing things a bit.

Careful now! The Cartel will have a word in the ear of `El Presidente' of the Republic to agitate a little spring uprising in Abu Dhabi, don't forget we're talking about business here not football!
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

gordondaviesmoustache said:
Putting Van Persie to one side Mancini's other widely reported main targets were Hazard and De Rossi. The former went for the bright lights of London, the latter wanted to stay at his boyhood club. Neither opted to come to City for differing reasons.

If money was the only factor then Messi and Ronaldo would both be playing for us. Life is much more complex than that, which based on your post you seem to fail to appreciate.

and Kaka would be the new Danny Mills and be labeled a thief by all and sundry on here
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

The funny thing is FFP will lead to larger sponsership deals for the established CL clubs (and us) meaning the divide between this group of clubs and all other clubs in the respected leagues will be even wider and it was the CL money in the first place that really distorted fair play with the same teams from most leagues in it year after year. Not to mention the TV money in Spain being shared mainly between the 2 clubs.

It is funny how things seem to come to a head as soon as City are involved.
Teams for decades spending obscene amounts (30 mill Ferdinand in 2002 wasnt it, how much for Figo or Zidane back in the days) but everyones happy. Chelsea come along and everythings fine but as soon as we start spending its FFP this, FFP that.


Anyhows with regards to FFP i am sure our excellent owners know the situation and we have nothing to worry about with them in charge
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

I just deleted half a page of my opinion on FFP and thought fcuk em instead.
We are here to stay rag lovers.
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

remember arthur mann said:
I'm no cynic said:
Threats of reducing the supply of oil from Abu Dhabi to Europe might swing things a bit.

Careful now! The Cartel will have a word in the ear of `El Presidente' of the Republic to agitate a little spring uprising in Abu Dhabi, don't forget we're talking about business here not football!

Ah, but Abu Dhabi doesn´t export any oil to Europe...
Apart from the fact that I wouldn´t like to be the one that tell Sheikh Mansour that his new $4bn pipeline to Fujairah will have to be closed that is.. lol
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

BluessinceHydeRoad said:
I shall not copy the whole of Almunia's letters, but I shall put them in context. The letters date from 21 March 2012. They do not mention City or any other club by name, because they are not concerned with any specific club. In March 2012 the German press was outraged at the contribution expected of the German taxpayer to bail out Spanish banks. Das Bild went further and asked for how long German taxpayers were to be expected to pay the wages of Messi and Ronaldo among others because it had become clear that all but one or two Spanish clubs owed very large sums of money indeed to the Spanish government in unpaid tax. The fear was that the Spanish government would waive these debts, as it had in the past. This could be construed as a state subsidy to a competing enterprise and would be against EU competition law. Almunia explains that the EU is confident that FFP “is also consistent with the aims and objectives of European Union policy in the field of state aid.” This gives the green light for UEFA to take action against Spanish clubs which do not pay their debts to the Spanish government. City are not mentioned because they are not concerned. This issue concerned only Spanish clubs and only the question of state aid.

Interestingly the letter talks approves of the broader question of the need for tight financial regulation in very difficult times. It mentions the need to “live within your means” and to “break even” and it alludes to clubs which pay “inflated transfer fees and wages … even when their true financial position should not allow them to do so.” This is assumed to be a dire warning to City that their “sugar daddy” will not be allowed to spend “funny money” on players and wages. Several points must be made about this interpretation.

The first is that the statement refers exclusively to Spanish tax dodgers! In the very next paragraph to his assertions of convergence between FFP and state aid policy he continues, “such policy of clubs (ie transfer fees and wages) seems particularly unjustified in the context of the economic downturn where austerity measures are being introduced in all member states.” This is a clear reference to government policy in Spain and the position of its football clubs. If those hostile to City argue that Almunia's letter shows support for a wider application of FFP than in cases of “state aid”, and that it shows support for action against City, they are reading words not to be found in the letter. The word Almunia uses is “inflated” about transfer fees and wages. The belief in football is that not since 2009 have City paid above market value for a player and that City's wage bill is large because of the number of players at the club, not because of the “inflated” wages paid to individuals. Then Almunia moves on to talk of clubs whose “true financial position should not allow them to do so.” If this refers to City then it has to be said that City's true position is that the owner pays off the annual deficit by buying shares and the club are debt free. His right to do so is protected by EU and British commercial law. It can be argued that Almunia is actually more worried by Manchester United, who had spent some £50 million in the window of summer 2011 and would bring in a £17 million midfielder and a £24 million striker (on £250 000 pw) in that of 2012, while their true position is that they are some £400 million in debt and hide their accounts in the Cayman Isles.

Now the warnings about sponsorship deals are, I suspect, so much chest beating. UEFA have shown themselves in the past to be stubbornly, stupidly arrogant, notably in the Bosman case. They ploughed on to the bitter end pursuing a case which everyone knew was hopeless and unwinnable. Their assertions that football was a special case and therefore beyond the reach of European law went down like the proverbial lead balloon. Now, Platini seems determined to tell the European courts that they not only decide which European laws apply to football (again!) but now, as a new twist!), he and his buddies actually make them.

I suspect, however, that the Sheikh will view this with scarcely concealed amusement. City have moved on a stage or two. The days of massive investment are over, and they paid off. There may well be a clear out in summer, others will come in. I don't know. But whatever happens will be carefully planned, financially balanced, done with footballing knowledge and expertise and along sound business lines. Michel who?

Cheers for a great post. Plenty of food for thought there.

:-)
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

inbetween said:
Johnsonontheleft said:
Does anyone know where FFP originated? I know it was first talked about shortly after our takeover and I know that it's an UEFA initiative/ruling.

My point is that it must have been mooted by an individual or group of individuals within UEFA. To say that UEFA brought FFP in is very vague - does anyone know exactly who proposed this, who participated in the meeting from which FFP arose?

I believe that Martin Samuel is bang on the money with his exposé here: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2261817/Arsenal-Manchester-United-financial-fair-play-plot-ruin-Premier-League--Martin-Samuel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... amuel.html</a>

It would be interesting to know exactly how FFP originated.

Read that article a while ago and it is definitely interesting to see how it 'suddenly' came about when we were starting to challenge. I think the FFP at it's core is a good idea because clubs do actually need to stop spending wildly beyond their means to get what they want, Portsmouth, Leeds, Rangers are all great examples of what happens when a club faces zero regulation and has awful management.

The idea though that it should be based on profit/loss is a bit flawed if you ask me, it should rather be based on all of that as a percentage of debt, debt is the problem in football not losses because a debt is a negative side effect to borrowing which means the club is owing real people and contractors money which in the worst cases aren't getting paid and that is the problem not clubs who want to spend the money they have available to them thanks to outside parties.

A club like ours isn't spending beyond our means because we have a major backer who is basically a guarantor so we never carry significant debt. UEFA if they really wanted it to be 'FAIR' in the true sense of the word should of really targeted the real problem and they could of very easily but instead it really stinks of trying to kill two birds with one stone and that is an outside challenge to the established order.

Now, after seeing what Paris are doing it's just a joke really.

I agrre and that was the orriginal purpose of FFP. They wanted to take out teams being bought on spec like United. The problem is the laws of Europe don't allow it. So they had to change the focus of FFP. After being legally shot down they found this red herring to save face which does play into thie philosophy of the blue bloods. This was the only thing they can legally inforce. Year in year out teams have "Bought" their championships. United, Arsenal, Blackburn, Chelsea, Real, Milan etc... have all outspent their competition. It's OK to buy a title if you're a blue blood "born" as an elite team. But if you are a "self made man" so to speak that's bad. Constantly hear the pundits complaining how we bought our title but I've never heard the same complains of Real Madrid who invented the process. This is just the power clubs worried they are going to lose thier status as elite clubs and can't handle the competition. Interesting how EUFA has targeted City and PSG and singled out their sponsership deals and they will have to prove their innosense instead of EUFA proving their guilt but no mention of Arsenal was made despite their deal dwarfing any othe clubs.
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

I don't think FFP affected us a lot last summer because while we did spend, it was on poor players. Still think it was just down to poor management by people like Marwood. Hopefully this will be different this summer.
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

When Ronaldo went to Inter Milan, Continental or Pirelli Tyres, can't recall which one, and Nike, contributed more than 70 per cent towards his salary.

Neymar gets paid only £100,000 a month from Santos but they brokered 11 companies to pay him another £850,000 A MONTH!!!!!

This is the only way to go. Pay our top players a basic £100k a week and be paid directly by companies outside of City.[/quote]

Thanks Tolmie - If that's already being done already, then FFP is going to be ineffective as a protectionist measure anyway as it is wage bills that are more directly linked to success than transfer budget.
 
Re: Serious question relating to us and FFP

Has anyone gone through the accounts of clubs like Leeds, Portsmouth, Rangers etc.

I recall Leeds in particular running at pretty small losses but large debt. And were reliant on getting in the champions league to stay out of trouble.

By the time they missed out on CL they were in the shit. But I've got a feeling that they would have passed current FFP rules until it was too late.

Too much talk IMO about FFP stopping another Leeds, Portsmouth, Rangers etc. I'm not sure it would.
 

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