"Shay Given is Not a Good Goalkeeper"

[deynaskaz]

Good shot stopper but does not control his box.Should have come for Giggs cross to stop Shrek scoring at the Swamp

Oh look, the often used "he doesn't control his box" cliche that people like to jump on without engaging their brain first.

So, firstly let's define situations in which Shay can 'control his box':

• Corners - Well not really, because we play a Zonal Marking system which means that 90% of crosses go to the edge of the 18 yard, and for the other 10%, the system relies on the fact that the keeper is on his line.
  
• Freekicks - He controls the wall, and with the exception of De Jong flinging himself out of the way, I can't recall a single time the opposition has scored from a direct shot. Cross wise - see corners, he can't move off of his line, we play Zonal Marking. Why are people so daft to not see that everybody has a 'zone' and Shay's is on his line?
  
• From low crosses - He does, in fact, there is no keeper better in the world at stopping a low cross and not parrying it. I'm struggling to think of any time in a City shirt where he dropped a ball from a low cross.
  
• From high crosses - again another oft touted cliche without any sembelence of truth to it. How many times has Shay come and not gotten the ball? Maybe 5 in his whole time at City. That's considerably less than most. So, the obvious and transparent remark to this, is that he doesn't come off of his line enough which again is crap. Shay comes when he KNOWS he will get the ball. If I had a choice between a guy who will come 1/5 times and definitely get it, or 1/2 time and might get it, I'd pick the former everytime. Any person he has ever being a Goalkeeper, or knows a GK coach will tell you that this is one of the best parts of his game.
  
• He doesn't control his defence - Firstly, it isn't like this guy is Mancini, he can't pick the formation or tactics. What he can do, is shout at defenders when he sees an uncovered threat. I'm at a complete loss for words if people think he doesn't do this, and each and every one of you gives yourself away as somebody who doesn't go to the match. Shay won't shut the fuck up. Sit behind a goal and tell me he's quieter than Joe Hart, who used to do funny dances but not actually concentrate on the game or make the odd remark to players.

This whole thread is an embarrassment.

Sorry for not agreeing with you but your facts are not facts ,there opinions ..or are you Rafe in disguise .Shay doesnt come for crosses just because you play zonal doesnt mean your goalkeeper cant controllplay in there like reina does on occasion for liverpool,,,

 

[kp789]

Given is a very good keeper

 

[Carl_Man_City]

Oh look, the often used "he doesn't control his box" cliche that people like to jump on without engaging their brain first.

So, firstly let's define situations in which Shay can 'control his box':

• Corners - Well not really, because we play a Zonal Marking system which means that 90% of crosses go to the edge of the 18 yard, and for the other 10%, the system relies on the fact that the keeper is on his line.
  
• Freekicks - He controls the wall, and with the exception of De Jong flinging himself out of the way, I can't recall a single time the opposition has scored from a direct shot. Cross wise - see corners, he can't move off of his line, we play Zonal Marking. Why are people so daft to not see that everybody has a 'zone' and Shay's is on his line?
  
• From low crosses - He does, in fact, there is no keeper better in the world at stopping a low cross and not parrying it. I'm struggling to think of any time in a City shirt where he dropped a ball from a low cross.
  
• From high crosses - again another oft touted cliche without any sembelence of truth to it. How many times has Shay come and not gotten the ball? Maybe 5 in his whole time at City. That's considerably less than most. So, the obvious and transparent remark to this, is that he doesn't come off of his line enough which again is crap. Shay comes when he KNOWS he will get the ball. If I had a choice between a guy who will come 1/5 times and definitely get it, or 1/2 time and might get it, I'd pick the former everytime. Any person he has ever being a Goalkeeper, or knows a GK coach will tell you that this is one of the best parts of his game.
  
• He doesn't control his defence - Firstly, it isn't like this guy is Mancini, he can't pick the formation or tactics. What he can do, is shout at defenders when he sees an uncovered threat. I'm at a complete loss for words if people think he doesn't do this, and each and every one of you gives yourself away as somebody who doesn't go to the match. Shay won't shut the fuck up. Sit behind a goal and tell me he's quieter than Joe Hart, who used to do funny dances but not actually concentrate on the game or make the odd remark to players.

This whole thread is an embarrassment.

Sorry for not agreeing with you but your facts are not facts ,there opinions ..or are you Rafe in disguise .Shay doesnt come for crosses just because you play zonal doesnt mean your goalkeeper cant controllplay in there like reina does on occasion for liverpool,,,

I agree, when the ball is there to be claimed it doesn't matter what marking your using, the keeper should come and take the ball.

 

[Damocles]

Sorry for not agreeing with you but your facts are not facts ,there opinions ..or are you Rafe in disguise .

So your whole argument could have been summed up by posting this:

Shay doesnt come for crosses just because you play zonal doesnt mean your goalkeeper cant controllplay in there like reina does on occasion for liverpool,,,

Read the post. My point is that he will come for crosses less because we have a Zonal system, and he will only come for crosses that he knows he will get.

Goalkeepers are far more useful on their line than they are swan-diving through the air for crosses.

 

[Damocles]

I agree, when the ball is there to be claimed it doesn't matter what marking your using, the keeper should come and take the ball.

Let's have a thought experiment here.

Possibility of fuck up:

Goes for ball, misses it = Very High probability of conceding.
Goes for ball, catches it = No possibility of conceding.

Doesn't go for ball, defence clears = No possibility of conceding.
Doesn't go for ball, oppo wins header = Medium possibility of conceding.

That is purely as simple as it is, the risk is far greater for keepers who come out more.

 

[Carl_Man_City]

I agree, when the ball is there to be claimed it doesn't matter what marking your using, the keeper should come and take the ball.

Let's have a thought experiment here.

Possibility of fuck up:

Goes for ball, misses it = Very High probability of conceding.
Goes for ball, catches it = No possibility of conceding.

Doesn't go for ball, defence clears = No possibility of conceding.
Doesn't go for ball, oppo wins header = Medium possibility of conceding.

That is purely as simple as it is, the risk is far greater for keepers who come out more.

Your true in what you say, but those keepers who are good at coming for the ball (like Reina and like Cech used to be) and claim it pretty much all the time they come also lowers the risk of conceding a lot more.


Given just isn't great at coming for the ball thats why he doesn't come out much. Those who are a lot better at coming out save more goals

 

[deynaskaz]

I agree, when the ball is there to be claimed it doesn't matter what marking your using, the keeper should come and take the ball.

Let's have a thought experiment here.

Possibility of fuck up:

Goes for ball, misses it = Very High probability of conceding.
Goes for ball, catches it = No possibility of conceding.

Doesn't go for ball, defence clears = No possibility of conceding.
Doesn't go for ball, oppo wins header = Medium possibility of conceding.

That is purely as simple as it is, the risk is far greater for keepers who come out more.

Not world class keepers who have judgement ,if a forward breaths on a keeper the keeper gets the freekick ,im not saying every cross is the keepers or that Shay is shit ,im saying there is better about that we can afford, and will need if we are to dominate the world as our great owners would like.Unless your saying Shay is the best in the world ,and just for the record i have not missed a home game in 3years and sit behind the goal ,so forgive me damocles.

 

[vincent]

Good keeper, but not great. Not commanding enough. Said it from day one when we bought him.

 

[selim]

So basically you are saying that keepers who are good in the air are more risky to their teams than keeper like shay!! is it handball you are talking about?
And i am lost, did we play the zonal system under Hughes?cause i dont remember shay getting off his line more frequent then!

 

[Scooby Blue]

What is it about this forum that tries to inhibit open discussion of a player's good points / bad points?

In a different extended thread (with admittedly an inflammatory reference to Mancini being a clown) anyone who tries to point out some of Roberto's tactical shortcomings recently...is accused of being hysterical or not giving the guy enough time or not being a loyal City fan.

My take on Shay Given is as follows:
1) His reflexes and shot stopping are probably as good as anyone in the Premier League.
2) He is not the tallest of goalkeepers and chooses to stay rooted to his line far too often...with the result that we concede goals like Rooney's late header in the semi-final.

BUT (and this is my main point)... Goalkeepers that come for crosses are caught out every so often and when they drop a clanger and a goal results ... it is highlighted on MOTD etc.
What is NOT highlighted is the number of goals they prevent by coming for crosses much more frequently.

Given has developed (in my opinion) an inflated reputation based on the low frequency of obvious clangers that he makes....because no-one has a pop at the keeper who is unable to keep out Rooney's point-blank header. Other decent keepers with perhaps lower profiles (Brad Friedel / Pepe Reina etc) might have made more of an effort to come for the cross in the first place.

I haven't seen enough of Buffon recently to say whether he is still the "best" keeper in the world , but there are quite a few Premier League keepers (such as Reina) that I would happily take over Given.