"Shay Given is Not a Good Goalkeeper"

[deynaskaz]

You see Hart lacked confidence in his judgement because of his limited experience ,as did kasper but Hart will grow into one of the worlds best and it would be a shame to say we lost two of the best young keepers in the world when we could of kept hart happy with cup games and a good wage rise.

 

[Carl_Man_City]

What is it about this forum that tries to inhibit open discussion of a player's good points / bad points?

In a different extended thread (with admittedly an inflammatory reference to Mancini being a clown) anyone who tries to point out some of Roberto's tactical shortcomings recently...is accused of being hysterical or not giving the guy enough time or not being a loyal City fan.

My take on Shay Given is as follows:
1) His reflexes and shot stopping are probably as good as anyone in the Premier League.
2) He is not the tallest of goalkeepers and chooses to stay rooted to his line far too often...with the result that we concede goals like Rooney's late header in the semi-final.

BUT (and this is my main point)... Goalkeepers that come for crosses are caught out every so often and when they drop a clanger and a goal results ... it is highlighted on MOTD etc.
What is NOT highlighted is the number of goals they prevent by coming for crosses much more frequently.

Given has developed (in my opinion) an inflated reputation based on the low frequency of obvious clangers that he makes....because no-one has a pop at the keeper who is unable to keep out Rooney's point-blank header. Other decent keepers with perhaps lower profiles (Brad Friedel / Pepe Reina etc) might have made more of an effort to come for the cross in the first place.

I haven't seen enough of Buffon recently to say whether he is still the "best" keeper in the world , but there are quite a few Premier League keepers (such as Reina) that I would happily take over Given.

Very very good post

 

[deynaskaz]

What is it about this forum that tries to inhibit open discussion of a player's good points / bad points?

In a different extended thread (with admittedly an inflammatory reference to Mancini being a clown) anyone who tries to point out some of Roberto's tactical shortcomings recently...is accused of being hysterical or not giving the guy enough time or not being a loyal City fan.

My take on Shay Given is as follows:
1) His reflexes and shot stopping are probably as good as anyone in the Premier League.
2) He is not the tallest of goalkeepers and chooses to stay rooted to his line far too often...with the result that we concede goals like Rooney's late header in the semi-final.

BUT (and this is my main point)... Goalkeepers that come for crosses are caught out every so often and when they drop a clanger and a goal results ... it is highlighted on MOTD etc.
What is NOT highlighted is the number of goals they prevent by coming for crosses much more frequently.

Given has developed (in my opinion) an inflated reputation based on the low frequency of obvious clangers that he makes....because no-one has a pop at the keeper who is unable to keep out Rooney's point-blank header. Other decent keepers with perhaps lower profiles (Brad Friedel / Pepe Reina etc) might have made more of an effort to come for the cross in the first place.

I haven't seen enough of Buffon recently to say whether he is still the "best" keeper in the world , but there are quite a few Premier League keepers (such as Reina) that I would happily take over Given.

Come on great post maybe this bluemoon forum is capable of open sensible debate , without resorting to swearing and name calling ...come on.

 

[Gavin_mcfc]

This is laughably shocking

 

[vincent]

This is laughably shocking

And why is that ? it's a forum, people have different opinions about players. Some people think Given is the best keeper in the league (or one of the best) so people don't and think he is overrated... It's similar with Ireland, again some people think he is one of the best midfielders in the country, I know many people who think he is overrated.

 

[Damocles]

What is it about this forum that tries to inhibit open discussion of a player's good points / bad points?

In a different extended thread (with admittedly an inflammatory reference to Mancini being a clown) anyone who tries to point out some of Roberto's tactical shortcomings recently...is accused of being hysterical or not giving the guy enough time or not being a loyal City fan.

My take on Shay Given is as follows:
1) His reflexes and shot stopping are probably as good as anyone in the Premier League.
2) He is not the tallest of goalkeepers and chooses to stay rooted to his line far too often...with the result that we concede goals like Rooney's late header in the semi-final.

BUT (and this is my main point)... Goalkeepers that come for crosses are caught out every so often and when they drop a clanger and a goal results ... it is highlighted on MOTD etc.
What is NOT highlighted is the number of goals they prevent by coming for crosses much more frequently.

Given has developed (in my opinion) an inflated reputation based on the low frequency of obvious clangers that he makes....because no-one has a pop at the keeper who is unable to keep out Rooney's point-blank header. Other decent keepers with perhaps lower profiles (Brad Friedel / Pepe Reina etc) might have made more of an effort to come for the cross in the first place.

I haven't seen enough of Buffon recently to say whether he is still the "best" keeper in the world , but there are quite a few Premier League keepers (such as Reina) that I would happily take over Given.

So, your whole argument is:

"Shay's good but because he doesn't come for crosses I want someone else".

When you get Reina, wouldn't your argument just be:

"He's great in the air, but not the best at shot-stopping, I want someone else".

Are you looking for the Mary Poppins of GKs? Hate to be the one to break it to you, but they don't exist.

Also, the assumption that Reina has a lower profile than Given is laughable. I know want to find someone on this form who has played as a GK at any level, so they can educate everybody about why Shay is fantastic. It's no surprise that every manager he's ever worked with has always called him the best in the world.
I wouldn't go that far, but he is certainly better than any other player that we could realistically get. Shay is better in his position than any other City player in theirs.

 

[deynaskaz]

What is it about this forum that tries to inhibit open discussion of a player's good points / bad points?

In a different extended thread (with admittedly an inflammatory reference to Mancini being a clown) anyone who tries to point out some of Roberto's tactical shortcomings recently...is accused of being hysterical or not giving the guy enough time or not being a loyal City fan.

My take on Shay Given is as follows:
1) His reflexes and shot stopping are probably as good as anyone in the Premier League.
2) He is not the tallest of goalkeepers and chooses to stay rooted to his line far too often...with the result that we concede goals like Rooney's late header in the semi-final.

BUT (and this is my main point)... Goalkeepers that come for crosses are caught out every so often and when they drop a clanger and a goal results ... it is highlighted on MOTD etc.
What is NOT highlighted is the number of goals they prevent by coming for crosses much more frequently.

Given has developed (in my opinion) an inflated reputation based on the low frequency of obvious clangers that he makes....because no-one has a pop at the keeper who is unable to keep out Rooney's point-blank header. Other decent keepers with perhaps lower profiles (Brad Friedel / Pepe Reina etc) might have made more of an effort to come for the cross in the first place.

I haven't seen enough of Buffon recently to say whether he is still the "best" keeper in the world , but there are quite a few Premier League keepers (such as Reina) that I would happily take over Given.

So, your whole argument is:

"Shay's good but because he doesn't come for crosses I want someone else".

When you get Reina, wouldn't your argument just be:

"He's great in the air, but not the best at shot-stopping, I want someone else".

Are you looking for the Mary Poppins of GKs? Hate to be the one to break it to you, but they don't exist.

Also, the assumption that Reina has a lower profile than Given is laughable. I know want to find someone on this form who has played as a GK at any level, so they can educate everybody about why Shay is fantastic. It's no surprise that every manager he's ever worked with has always called him the best in the world.
I wouldn't go that far, but he is certainly better than any other player that we could realistically get. Shay is better in his position than any other City player in theirs.

"That we could realistically get." At the moment, who would of said that we would be able to get most the players we have now a few years ago,but im glad you agree he is not the best in the world .Our owners and Mr cook have quite clearly stated they aim to make us the best in the world,so why would we not be able to attract the best players in the world ,especially if we reach the holy grail of the champions league...Or dont you believe our owners have it in them?

 

[Scooby Blue]

Damocles:

Don't tell me what my argument is... it speaks for itself.

Just because you obviously rate Given higher than I do ... don't put words in my mouth.

Different keepers have different strengths / weaknesses.... but my point is that Given's reputation is artificially high because of his reluctance to come for crosses and commit "obvious" errors.

The most suitable keeper for City depends on the aerial strength of the defenders in front of him. If we had Terry / Hangeland / Shawcrosss heading away every cross ... then maybe Given might be perfect for us. But we don't ... so perhaps a keeper who is more prepared to come for crosses might help our overall defence.

 

[without a dream]

Good shot stopper but does not control his box.Should have come for Giggs cross to stop Shrek scoring at the Swamp

Oh look, the often used "he doesn't control his box" cliche that people like to jump on without engaging their brain first.

So, firstly let's define situations in which Shay can 'control his box':

• Corners - Well not really, because we play a Zonal Marking system which means that 90% of crosses go to the edge of the 18 yard, and for the other 10%, the system relies on the fact that the keeper is on his line.
  
• Freekicks - He controls the wall, and with the exception of De Jong flinging himself out of the way, I can't recall a single time the opposition has scored from a direct shot. Cross wise - see corners, he can't move off of his line, we play Zonal Marking. Why are people so daft to not see that everybody has a 'zone' and Shay's is on his line?
  
• From low crosses - He does, in fact, there is no keeper better in the world at stopping a low cross and not parrying it. I'm struggling to think of any time in a City shirt where he dropped a ball from a low cross.
  
• From high crosses - again another oft touted cliche without any sembelence of truth to it. How many times has Shay come and not gotten the ball? Maybe 5 in his whole time at City. That's considerably less than most. So, the obvious and transparent remark to this, is that he doesn't come off of his line enough which again is crap. Shay comes when he KNOWS he will get the ball. If I had a choice between a guy who will come 1/5 times and definitely get it, or 1/2 time and might get it, I'd pick the former everytime. Any person he has ever being a Goalkeeper, or knows a GK coach will tell you that this is one of the best parts of his game.
  
• He doesn't control his defence - Firstly, it isn't like this guy is Mancini, he can't pick the formation or tactics. What he can do, is shout at defenders when he sees an uncovered threat. I'm at a complete loss for words if people think he doesn't do this, and each and every one of you gives yourself away as somebody who doesn't go to the match. Shay won't shut the fuck up. Sit behind a goal and tell me he's quieter than Joe Hart, who used to do funny dances but not actually concentrate on the game or make the odd remark to players.

This whole thread is an embarrassment.

I agree in part with that, it's playing to his strengths, he's not confident of getting the ball so don't come for it. I'd rather he did this than come and miss but a truly top keeper comes and gets it far more than Shay does, although he does seem to coming for them a little more under Mancini.

A keeper coming and getting the ball relieves so much pressure on the defence whatever marking system you're using it's also a great way to start a counter attack ala Pepe Reina.

You've also been rather selective in only using Mancini's zonal marking rather than looking at our admittedly poor attempt at man-marking under Hughes, or the Shambles of a defence at Newcastle when a keeper coming for the ball would have made a significant difference to weaknesses at set pieces and crosses.

I like Shay and his shot-stopping is sensational and in many ways makes up for the weaknesses in his game, I'd lost count of the number of times I thought we were destined to concede and he saved us by the time his debut had finished! However I don't buy into Shay being the best 'keeper in the world as some seem to think.

 

[Fat Chance]

Corrigan for his last 5 years with us was more complete than Shay.