Shootings in Paris

[mancityvstoke]

maybe the answer is to start arming ourselves with guns like in America..........................to protect you and your loved ones from these fucking psychos.

How else do we fight this shit?

It will not end well if this starts to happen regularly.

I see reprisals.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Talking shite imo. Mocking an individual to their face is not the same as drawing a cartoon.

I can hardly mock Mohammed to his face now can I? And the point is that Muslims do take it personally if Mohammed is seen to be mocked and a number of posters have pointed this out.

That's their problem.

As 12 dead people found out.

 

[mancityvstoke]

I can hardly mock Mohammed to his face now can I? And the point is that Muslims do take it personally if Mohammed is seen to be mocked and a number of posters have pointed this out.

That's their problem.

As 12 dead people found out.

Unarmed.............

 

[aguero93:20]

That's their problem.

As 12 dead people found out.

Unarmed.............

They had armed police at the office, guns don't guarantee you safety from other people with guns, they just allow small groups of people to kill large groups of people indiscriminately.

 

[M18CTID]

One is personal abuse in a confrontational and provocative manner inviting violent repercussions..... the other is a cartoon of an ancient Prophet poking fun at a belief not an individual person.........

Yes, yes, yes, we all know what the difference is and thanks for constantly reminding us. We're simply pointing out that both actions are likely to invite trouble. Seeing as though Sam had the decency to answer the question, I'll put it to you - if you were a cartoonist would you be as bullish as you are on here and be prepared to produce a cartoon poking fun at the prophet, knowing that while it isn't having a pop at someone in person it would still create uproar amongst certain Muslim factions? Put simply, would you be prepared to put your life at risk for the sake of drawing a picture or would you exercise a bit of tact and decide against it?

I wouldn't say I'm bullish, I'd say it's just my opinion and I'm standing up for what's reasonable in modern society. We poke fun, criticize and mock each other about different beliefs and at different levels, we shouldn't make exceptions.

Put simply, would you be prepared to put your life at risk

There lies the problem which I'm trying to address.. It's stupid that it does invite trouble. Why should there be threat in the air, why should my life be at risk for exercising my right to mock or criticize Muslim's beliefs in a cartoon? Why should other innocent people be at risk as well? Perhaps that angry threat needs addressing. We live in a civil society open to freedom or speech and expression. If Muslims are offended then I'm sorry, we didn't go through over a century of evolution of democracy to make exceptions for a minority that believe in fairy tails because they are offended by a cartoon.

It sounds like you want to give in to a minority who belong back in the dark ages.

I totally refute that last line but agree with pretty much everything else you've said. It's more about tact than giving in to the nutjobs and as that Huffington Post article stated, it's not just the extremists that are offended by it - pretty much every Muslim is to varying degrees, even though the vast majority of them would never resort to violence about this or want a return to the dark ages. I'm not a religious person so can't get my head round why they view it like that but I'd guess their religion is indoctrinated into them in a very deep way for them to be so upset by it.

 

[goalmole]

Most ideologies and religions are set up initially as a force for good, and generally they are, until they are taken to an extreme by people who do not understand the concept of moderation. Every idea you can name will be subject to this rule. There is invariably a tipping point when something that is good, when applied to an extreme, turns bad.
As an example i will quote from the great philosopher Charles Hartshorne:
"Suppose a carpenter were to insist that if hinges on one side of a door are good, hinges on both sides would be better. So he hangs a door by hinging it on both sides, and it then appears that the hinges cannot function, so that the door is not a door but a wall. "We’ll fix that," says another carpenter, and removes all the hinges. So now the door is again not a door, but a board lying on the floor". .
In my opinion free speech is no different. It has to be applied wisely and in moderation to have it's full and intended effect. The fact that we have legislation to restrict it proves the point.
We have to tread very carefully because as we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Never Mind The Pollocks]

I can hardly mock Mohammed to his face now can I? And the point is that Muslims do take it personally if Mohammed is seen to be mocked and a number of posters have pointed this out.

That's their problem.

As 12 dead people found out.

Me and you are not going to agree on this I don't think.

 

[happy daze]

I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with your view Sam. But as I said above, the law is just part of the whole picture. I wouldn't go into some pub in a dodgy part of Salford and mock the local hard-man, even though there's nothing illegal about it. If said hard-man beat me to a pulp, then the law is very much on my side but you would certainly question the wisdom of my action.

Talking shite imo. Mocking an individual to their face is not the same as drawing a cartoon.

I can hardly mock Mohammed to his face now can I? And the point is that Muslims do take it personally if Mohammed is seen to be mocked and a number of posters have pointed this out.

This from a muslim in France being interviewed on the BBC " I am 100% in favour of free speech,I don't read Charlie but what they print they will have to answer to god for" Wise man,doesn't think other people have to act on god,allah or whoevers behalf,if he exists you pay after death if you've offended him/her/it"

 

[SWP's back]

Interesting discussion.

I think you are confusing what is legal/illegal in the UK and what a person's own "code of conduct" is. Mocking a religion or a religious icon isn't illegal in the UK, but I personally wouldn't mock a person's beliefs because I respect that person's right to his own beliefs. I will defend another person's right to mock a religion though, up to the point that it becomes illegal. And there are ways to have specific actions made illegal, provided there is enough support for it.

I also wouldn't mock the local hard man, but I would defend anyone's right to do that if they so wished.

I respect people but have no inbuilt automatic respect for people's beliefs, be they Chelsea fans, theists or racists.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

That's their problem.

As 12 dead people found out.

Me and you are not going to agree on this I don't think.

I think we probably do agree that the response to the publishing of the cartoons was not justifiable in any way, shape or form. But as you've not posted anything coherent on this other than "That's their problem", "Talking shite imo" and other similarly enlightening contributions then it's difficult to know what your position is.

So let me specifically ask you the questions I asked earlier:
You invite a Muslim friend or colleague to dinner. Do you serve him a pork chop and, when he tells you he can't eat that, say "That's your problem" or do you attempt to find out what is acceptable to him and do your best to meet his requirements?