Shootings in Paris

[johnmc]

It's not really I case of what I would do is it. It's a case of what Muslims should do themselves. The same way that if the Catholic church has factions within its membership that have caused problems both within and outside the church as has been the cae, that they need to take actions to correct them (as well as the law obviously). That's by widespread condemnation of the acts, by education of its members etc. maybe this is happening and it isn't reported. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me more.

However, from what I can see there are prominent members/clerics of the Islamic faith that are willing to stand outside a mosque in London for example and incite violence against non believers, that have praised the 9/11 bombings and generally preach hatred. Can you imagine a priest standing out a church saying peadophilia is a god given right? The majority would shout them down and make complaints accordingly. I'm positive the majority of Muslims are good people. But there seems to be a growing number that seem to be willing to carry out attroticites in the name of religion. I have seen Breviks name mentioned on this thread as an example of how this can happen in any religion and of course it can. That was in 2011, and was the only example I can think of in recent times of a similar occurrence not involving Muslims.

So in answer to your question I think the solution need to come from within.

The problem with saying that is that there is no central Muslim authority, in the same way that there is a Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury. And even things they say aren't necessarily meekly accepted. If we accept the need t have Freedom of Expression, that means we accept that people are free to express things that we may not want to hear or that we vehemently disagree with.

But even then, it's not words but actions that we need to deal with. People encouraging others to take part in violence, either here or abroad, need to be identified and dealt with by the security services and police. That's happening. We can expel hate preachers but they can just go somewhere where they are more at liberty to preach hate and where we can't monitor them quite as closely. Better to have them inside the tent pissing out, to quote Lyndon Johnson.

The most worrying thing for me are the young people going to Syria & Iraq to take part in the violence. Some will be killed, some will see that it's not quite as glamorous as it was painted and some will come back to carry on the struggle here. These are the people we have to root out and deal with. My solution would be to intern them, in the same way we did with Nazis after WWII, and assess and, if necessary, get moderate imams to re-educate them until they're no longer considered a danger to the public. That may well create a stir among some sections of society but I think that's what we need to do.

Appreciate what you are saying but when these clerics stand outside a mosque after prayers they automatically have an audience there and some will listen and some may be taken in. If they are moved elsewhere, if the leaders of the mosque condemn it and say they do not accept that being carried out outside the mosque, then you remove a large element of an audience. Those that want to hear it will find a way to do so but those who didn't have any intention of listening and catch a few words they agree with, stand a listen for a bit and you know the rest. Is it not akin to say the IRA holding court outside a church every Sunday. How long do you think that would be allowed to continue?

 

[aguero93:20]

Never mind 300 years ago, what about Northern Ireland 40 years ago? A community fed up of what it saw as its second class status and oppression by the ruling class, launched a murderous campaign of shooting and bombing. Many young, disaffected Catholics were either notably sympathetic to the cause or actively took part

You don't think a little matter of being 'occupied' had something to play in this then?

'Occupation' does not have to mean just territorially

And of course Iraq and Afghanistan haven't been occupied either.

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.examiner.com/article/honor-killings-lies-damn-lies-and-statistics

It's not 5,000 Muslim honor killings. It's 5,000 women and girls murdered by members of their own family. Huge difference! Women murdered in America would be included as part of that statistic. The report does say many (not most) of them are honor killings, and the majority of honor killings are in Muslim majority countries, but it makes no estimate as to how many that is. I'm not trying to diminish the issue, just refine the statistics. Honor killings are a major problem.

Now, let's give it some perspective.

Let's accept the 5,000 number as our first sample, flawed as it is. We'll presume all 5,000 women and girls murdered by members of their own families are Muslim, even though we know that's not true, and put motive aside for the moment. A recent report from the The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that there are an estimated 1.57 billion Muslims in the world, which is approaching 25% of the world population. We'll use that as our second sample. That's 3.2 per Million Muslim women murdered by their family annually.

Now, lets look at America.

According the FBI Expanded Homicide Data There were 14,180 US murders in 2008. Of those, 930 were women and girls murdered by their own families. We'll use that as our first sample. According to The Bartleby World Factbook for 2008 the United States had approximately 301 million people the year these statistics were gathered. So, let's accept that as our second sample. That's 3.1 per Million American women murdered by their family annually.

So the difference between the rate at which Muslims murder women in their family and Americans murder women in their family is 1 per 10 Million. That's a statistically insignificant difference, especially considering we know the 5,000 sample would actually include the 930 American murders.


------------------


We can all find the 5000 figure on the Internet, sadly that's as far as you needed to go because at that point the information fitted your understanding. Fortunately I am capable of critical thinking and my though process urges me to dig a little deeper to see how that figure was arrived at. Rather than take things on face value.

Families killing their own loved ones is not exclusive to Islam/Muslims.

Ha, you say I am capable of using information to suit my argument. There is a difference between an honour killing and being murdered by a member of your family. In honour killings you cannot "put motives aside". An honour killing is on the whole due to the perpertraitor believing shame has been brought upon the family and in the majority of incidents are due to a perceived violation of religious principles. The U.S. has only a small percentage of these 5,000. Although I concede the numbers are unlikely to be accurate. However you analysis seems to rule out the possibility of there being American Muslims?


<a class="postlink" href="http://hbv-awareness.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://hbv-awareness.com</a>

You can't say there are 5000 honour killings in the world (whilst implying it is a unique phenomenon to the Muslim communities around the world), then when challenged on this, say "although I concede the numbers are unlikely to be accurate". That's the biggest load of bollocks ever.

I been on this thread all day. You challenged me earlier on something relating to homosexuality. I answered that and since then several other points have been levelled at me, which I feel I have answered.

You obviously have everything all worked out. All of your ill informed prejudices lined up in neat little rows like chess pieces. Ready to bring them into play whenever the previous piece is quickly removed from the board.

 

[aguero93:20]

It's not really I case of what I would do is it. It's a case of what Muslims should do themselves. The same way that if the Catholic church has factions within its membership that have caused problems both within and outside the church as has been the cae, that they need to take actions to correct them (as well as the law obviously). That's by widespread condemnation of the acts, by education of its members etc. maybe this is happening and it isn't reported. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me more.

However, from what I can see there are prominent members/clerics of the Islamic faith that are willing to stand outside a mosque in London for example and incite violence against non believers, that have praised the 9/11 bombings and generally preach hatred. Can you imagine a priest standing out a church saying peadophilia is a god given right? The majority would shout them down and make complaints accordingly. I'm positive the majority of Muslims are good people. But there seems to be a growing number that seem to be willing to carry out attroticites in the name of religion. I have seen Breviks name mentioned on this thread as an example of how this can happen in any religion and of course it can. That was in 2011, and was the only example I can think of in recent times of a similar occurrence not involving Muslims.

So in answer to your question I think the solution need to come from within.

The problem with saying that is that there is no central Muslim authority, in the same way that there is a Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury. And even things they say aren't necessarily meekly accepted. If we accept the need t have Freedom of Expression, that means we accept that people are free to express things that we may not want to hear or that we vehemently disagree with.

But even then, it's not words but actions that we need to deal with. People encouraging others to take part in violence, either here or abroad, need to be identified and dealt with by the security services and police. That's happening. We can expel hate preachers but they can just go somewhere where they are more at liberty to preach hate and where we can't monitor them quite as closely. Better to have them inside the tent pissing out, to quote Lyndon Johnson.

The most worrying thing for me are the young people going to Syria & Iraq to take part in the violence. Some will be killed, some will see that it's not quite as glamorous as it was painted and some will come back to carry on the struggle here. These are the people we have to root out and deal with. My solution would be to intern them, in the same way we did with Nazis after WWII, and assess and, if necessary, get moderate imams to re-educate them until they're no longer considered a danger to the public. That may well create a stir among some sections of society but I think that's what we need to do.

Colin mate you are way off there. The problem is that the Islamic populace that are against these actions are completely fucking ignored, it's propaganda pure and simple, news to fit a narrative, you should get this a lot more than most tbh.

 

[aguero93:20]

http://www.examiner.com/article/honor-killings-lies-damn-lies-and-statistics

It's not 5,000 Muslim honor killings. It's 5,000 women and girls murdered by members of their own family. Huge difference! Women murdered in America would be included as part of that statistic. The report does say many (not most) of them are honor killings, and the majority of honor killings are in Muslim majority countries, but it makes no estimate as to how many that is. I'm not trying to diminish the issue, just refine the statistics. Honor killings are a major problem.

Now, let's give it some perspective.

Let's accept the 5,000 number as our first sample, flawed as it is. We'll presume all 5,000 women and girls murdered by members of their own families are Muslim, even though we know that's not true, and put motive aside for the moment. A recent report from the The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that there are an estimated 1.57 billion Muslims in the world, which is approaching 25% of the world population. We'll use that as our second sample. That's 3.2 per Million Muslim women murdered by their family annually.

Now, lets look at America.

According the FBI Expanded Homicide Data There were 14,180 US murders in 2008. Of those, 930 were women and girls murdered by their own families. We'll use that as our first sample. According to The Bartleby World Factbook for 2008 the United States had approximately 301 million people the year these statistics were gathered. So, let's accept that as our second sample. That's 3.1 per Million American women murdered by their family annually.

So the difference between the rate at which Muslims murder women in their family and Americans murder women in their family is 1 per 10 Million. That's a statistically insignificant difference, especially considering we know the 5,000 sample would actually include the 930 American murders.


------------------


We can all find the 5000 figure on the Internet, sadly that's as far as you needed to go because at that point the information fitted your understanding. Fortunately I am capable of critical thinking and my though process urges me to dig a little deeper to see how that figure was arrived at. Rather than take things on face value.

Families killing their own loved ones is not exclusive to Islam/Muslims.

Ha, you say I am capable of using information to suit my argument. There is a difference between an honour killing and being murdered by a member of your family. In honour killings you cannot "put motives aside". An honour killing is on the whole due to the perpertraitor believing shame has been brought upon the family and in the majority of incidents are due to a perceived violation of religious principles. The U.S. has only a small percentage of these 5,000. Although I concede the numbers are unlikely to be accurate. However you analysis seems to rule out the possibility of there being American Muslims?


<a class="postlink" href="http://hbv-awareness.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://hbv-awareness.com</a>

You can't say there are 5000 honour killings in the world (whilst implying it is a unique phenomenon to the Muslim communities around the world), then when challenged on this, say "although I concede the numbers are unlikely to be accurate". That's the biggest load of bollocks ever.

I been on this thread all day. You challenged me earlier on something relating to homosexuality. I answered that and since then several other points have been levelled at me, which I feel I have answered.

You obviously have everything all worked out. All of your ill informed prejudices lined up in neat little rows like chess pieces. Ready to bring them into play whenever the previous piece is quickly removed from the board.

I filed him under genocide earlier (eg intolerant ****) you should leave him there too.

 

[Anonymous]

Ha, you say I am capable of using information to suit my argument. There is a difference between an honour killing and being murdered by a member of your family. In honour killings you cannot "put motives aside". An honour killing is on the whole due to the perpertraitor believing shame has been brought upon the family and in the majority of incidents are due to a perceived violation of religious principles. The U.S. has only a small percentage of these 5,000. Although I concede the numbers are unlikely to be accurate. However you analysis seems to rule out the possibility of there being American Muslims?


<a class="postlink" href="http://hbv-awareness.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://hbv-awareness.com</a>

You can't say there are 5000 honour killings in the world (whilst implying it is a unique phenomenon to the Muslim communities around the world), then when challenged on this, say "although I concede the numbers are unlikely to be accurate". That's the biggest load of bollocks ever.

I been on this thread all day. You challenged me earlier on something relating to homosexuality. I answered that and since then several other points have been levelled at me, which I feel I have answered.

You obviously have everything all worked out. All of your ill informed prejudices lined up in neat little rows like chess pieces. Ready to bring them into play whenever the previous piece is quickly removed from the board.

I filed him under genocide earlier (eg intolerant c**t) you should leave him there too.

I agree. Filed under genocide as of now. ;-)

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

It's not really I case of what I would do is it. It's a case of what Muslims should do themselves. The same way that if the Catholic church has factions within its membership that have caused problems both within and outside the church as has been the cae, that they need to take actions to correct them (as well as the law obviously). That's by widespread condemnation of the acts, by education of its members etc. maybe this is happening and it isn't reported. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me more.

However, from what I can see there are prominent members/clerics of the Islamic faith that are willing to stand outside a mosque in London for example and incite violence against non believers, that have praised the 9/11 bombings and generally preach hatred. Can you imagine a priest standing out a church saying peadophilia is a god given right? The majority would shout them down and make complaints accordingly. I'm positive the majority of Muslims are good people. But there seems to be a growing number that seem to be willing to carry out attroticites in the name of religion. I have seen Breviks name mentioned on this thread as an example of how this can happen in any religion and of course it can. That was in 2011, and was the only example I can think of in recent times of a similar occurrence not involving Muslims.

So in answer to your question I think the solution need to come from within.

The problem with saying that is that there is no central Muslim authority, in the same way that there is a Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury. And even things they say aren't necessarily meekly accepted. If we accept the need t have Freedom of Expression, that means we accept that people are free to express things that we may not want to hear or that we vehemently disagree with.

But even then, it's not words but actions that we need to deal with. People encouraging others to take part in violence, either here or abroad, need to be identified and dealt with by the security services and police. That's happening. We can expel hate preachers but they can just go somewhere where they are more at liberty to preach hate and where we can't monitor them quite as closely. Better to have them inside the tent pissing out, to quote Lyndon Johnson.

The most worrying thing for me are the young people going to Syria & Iraq to take part in the violence. Some will be killed, some will see that it's not quite as glamorous as it was painted and some will come back to carry on the struggle here. These are the people we have to root out and deal with. My solution would be to intern them, in the same way we did with Nazis after WWII, and assess and, if necessary, get moderate imams to re-educate them until they're no longer considered a danger to the public. That may well create a stir among some sections of society but I think that's what we need to do.

Colin mate you are way off there. The problem is that the Islamic populace that are against these actions are completely fucking ignored, it's propaganda pure and simple, news to fit a narrative, you should get this a lot more than most tbh.

Ignored by the media I assume you mean, in whih case I agree with you. The media, as we know, tend towards the sensational rather than the mundane. The story about Bradford Muslims paying for the restoration of a synagogue in Bradford LINK wasn't as sexy as George Galloway's declaration of Bradford as an "Israel-free" zone or the anti-semitic tweets of the other local MP, David Ward. They'd rather highight a preacher of hate, rather than ten preaching a conciliatory message.

But Islam is like Judaism in that there are a number of distinct sects and groupings, all of which are pretty well self-regulating. The Chief Rabbi is only head of a number of mainstream synagogues and has no authority over the ultra-religious or liberal wings. I am sure that the vast majority of Muslims are horrified by some of the things supposedly done in their name, in the same way that many Jews are by some of the actions of Israel.

 

[aguero93:20]

The problem with saying that is that there is no central Muslim authority, in the same way that there is a Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury. And even things they say aren't necessarily meekly accepted. If we accept the need t have Freedom of Expression, that means we accept that people are free to express things that we may not want to hear or that we vehemently disagree with.

But even then, it's not words but actions that we need to deal with. People encouraging others to take part in violence, either here or abroad, need to be identified and dealt with by the security services and police. That's happening. We can expel hate preachers but they can just go somewhere where they are more at liberty to preach hate and where we can't monitor them quite as closely. Better to have them inside the tent pissing out, to quote Lyndon Johnson.

The most worrying thing for me are the young people going to Syria & Iraq to take part in the violence. Some will be killed, some will see that it's not quite as glamorous as it was painted and some will come back to carry on the struggle here. These are the people we have to root out and deal with. My solution would be to intern them, in the same way we did with Nazis after WWII, and assess and, if necessary, get moderate imams to re-educate them until they're no longer considered a danger to the public. That may well create a stir among some sections of society but I think that's what we need to do.

Colin mate you are way off there. The problem is that the Islamic populace that are against these actions are completely fucking ignored, it's propaganda pure and simple, news to fit a narrative, you should get this a lot more than most tbh.

Ignored by the media I assume you mean, in whih case I agree with you. The media, as we know, tend towards the sensational rather than the mundane. The story about Bradford Muslims paying for the restoration of a synagogue in Bradford LINK wasn't as sexy as George Galloway's declaration of Bradford as an "Israel-free" zone or the anti-semitic tweets of the other local MP, David Ward. They'd rather highight a preacher of hate, rather than ten preaching a conciliatory message.

But Islam is like Judaism in that there are a number of distinct sects and groupings, all of which are pretty well self-regulating. The Chief Rabbi is only head of a number of mainstream synagogues and has no authority over the ultra-religious or liberal wings. I am sure that the vast majority of Muslims are horrified by some of the things supposedly done in their name, in the same way that many Jews are by some of the actions of Israel.

And like Judaism/Christianity you cannot judge the majority upon the actions of a few. It sickens me to see some of the shit on this thread. And some that have posted on here need a kick in the teeth.

 

[i kne albert davy]

OH BOY, HERE WE GO.....

Chances are it will shortly develop a catapult fault or engine problems.

at least they have a fucking carrier and planes to operate off it.

Our's will be finished in 5 or 6 years and the Yanks will sell us the aeroplanes you're just to impatient.

 

[aguero93:20]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

 

[Anonymous]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

 

[i kne albert davy]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

About 3 million at the last count.

 

[aguero93:20]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

I've got plenty of axes to grind with religion. But I've got a brain too.

 

[Anonymous]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

About 3 million at the last count.

Very good.

They think they're buying a collectors item. He he.

 

[stony]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

Hahaha, that really is the ultimate irony. Someone who follows a religion labelling people who don't as "sheep"

 

[Metal Biker]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

Hahaha, that really is the ultimate irony. Someone who follows a religion labelling people who don't as "sheep"

I'm beginning to question what his real views on atheism and atheists are. I don't get the impression he's being entirely honest with himself, judging by his more recent posts.

 

[aguero93:20]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

Hahaha, that really is the ultimate irony. Someone who follows a religion labelling people who don't as "sheep"

Whether you follow religion or the media you're still a sheep. Baa Mr. Jones, yes. Mr. Jones.

 

[Anonymous]

But it would be a terrible thing if the people forgot that Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/I'maninsecurewankerism is an easy thing to blame for the shortcomings in our society that we don't want to deal with and want a scapegoat for.

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

Hahaha, that really is the ultimate irony. Someone who follows a religion labelling people who don't as "sheep"

For the last time I am not a Muslim nor religious. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[Metal Biker]

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

Hahaha, that really is the ultimate irony. Someone who follows a religion labelling people who don't as "sheep"

For the last time I am not a Muslim nor religious. Sorry to disappoint you.

Yet you defend Islam with more fervour than the Muslims have done so. It's a not a "White Guilt Complex" is it?

 

[Anonymous]

What I find worrying is how many people have fallen for the lies. How many have axes to grind with religion in general, in this particular case Islam and how many sheep there are out there.

Hahaha, that really is the ultimate irony. Someone who follows a religion labelling people who don't as "sheep"

I'm beginning to question what his real views on atheism and atheists are. I don't get the impression he's being entirely honest with himself, judging by his more recent posts.

I have no particular views on atheists/atheism really and I am totally honest with myself, thanks.

What recent posts?.