Shootings in Paris

[i kne albert davy]

OH BOY, HERE WE GO.....

French President Francois Hollande has announced that the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier is ready for use in military operations against Islamic State in Iraq. The warship is to work in cooperation with coalition forces combatting the militants.

In a speech onboard the aircraft carrier on Wednesday, Hollande told military personnel that that the Charlie Hebdo massacre carried out by Islamic extremists last week “justifies the presence of our aircraft carrier.”

"Thanks to the Charles de Gaulle we will have intelligence ... we may also conduct operations in Iraq," Hollande said.


The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is the flagship of the French fleet, and is currently cruising off France’s southern coast in the Mediterranean.

The carrier is the largest Western European warship currently in commission, and is France’s only nuclear-powered surface vessel. The ship can carry 20 to 25 aircraft, including Super Etendard strike fighter jets, Rafale M multirole fighter jets and Aster missiles.

The ship’s deployment, during which it will provide airstrikes against Islamic State militants, is expected to last until May at the earliest.


Since last week’s deadly terrorist attacks in Paris which killed 17, authorities have been tightening security as they continue the search for accomplices to the perpetrators. France has deployed 10,000 troops and 120,000 additional security personnel to sensitive areas including Jewish schools, synagogues and mosques.

In the aftermath of the attacks, 54 people, including four minors, have been arrested for defending terrorism and hate speech. None of those arrested have been linked to the attack. Several, however, have already been convicted under special measures for immediate sentencing.

<a class="postlink" href="http://rt.com/news/222647-hollande-aircraft-carrier-islamic-state/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://rt.com/news/222647-hollande-airc ... mic-state/</a>

Chances are it will shortly develop a catapult fault or engine problems.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Does anyone else see the similarities and parallels with what happened in the UK 300 years ago (yes, I know it was a long time ago but bear with me).
The Gunpowder Plot.; a disenfranchised younger generation of Catholics looked upon their parents as too accepting of what they perceived to be oppression. They were mostly English born but, for some reason, they saw activism rather than doing nothing as the step to take.
I know it's very different in some ways but I think the ideaology has some similarities

Never mind 300 years ago, what about Northern Ireland 40 years ago? A community fed up of what it saw as its second class status and oppression by the ruling class, launched a murderous campaign of shooting and bombing. Many young, disaffected Catholics were either notably sympathetic to the cause or actively took part

You don't think a little matter of being 'occupied' had something to play in this then?

That was something like 300 years earlier but you could certainly trace the rise of Islamic fundamentalism to the occupation of Afghanistan by the Russians.

 

[i kne albert davy]

Never mind 300 years ago, what about Northern Ireland 40 years ago? A community fed up of what it saw as its second class status and oppression by the ruling class, launched a murderous campaign of shooting and bombing. Many young, disaffected Catholics were either notably sympathetic to the cause or actively took part

You don't think a little matter of being 'occupied' had something to play in this then?

That was something like 300 years earlier but you could certainly trace the rise of Islamic fundamentalism to the occupation of Afghanistan by the Russians.

Or the first crusade's of the 11th Century or Billy Hicks advance in the Sudan in the 19th the lists endless.

 

[goalmole]

Do I fuck as like.

And you stated in the post I replied to that they didn't feel secure and accepted as they've only been here a short time.

Well they are a fucking great sight more secure and able to practice their religion in Europe than Christians are in areas of the Middle East. Christmas, Easter, Jesus, Judaism cannot be taught in Qatar. Teachers aren't even allowed to mention Greek or Roman gods in history.

Try teaching about Ancient Egyptians and why The Pyramids were built without saying how Pharows were deitified.

I don't think all individuals and communities are the same. It's just some are more tolerant than others and during my experience, Islam has the thinnest skin and is the least tolerant of those religions I have come into contact with.

That just sounds like "they do it as well." It doesn't make it right though does it?.

How long have schools taught about evolution in the UK. There was a time when only creationism would've been taught. School/education is a church invention.

That's the thing with secularism and science though isn't it. It changes with facts and evidence.

Unlike Islam, and Islamic States which refuse to move with the times. Hell, even the Pope says evolution is real.

If your point is saying "give them time as they are behind europe in this" then I'd agree, they are. But the sooner some see that Islam isn't the only way then nothing will change.

You really should live under Sharia law though, it's a real eye opener.

After having gone back and forth for the last few days, I think this thread is lurching towards some kind of happy concensus. I don't think we have seen eye to eye about the whole affair but I would partially agree with the statement I have highlighted. The Muslims do need to take a long hard look at themselves and where they as a group are headed, and by and large they are beginning to do that. I think it was Damocles who said earlier in the thread that the problem isn't that there is no change but the fact that that there is too much changing far too quickly for the Muslim world to adapt. Most of the violence we see is a reaction to that change. This resistance that we see is not anything unique to Islam, just compare the situation to the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites and you will see remarkable similarities.
The trick lies in helping make this change without making Muslims feel that their beliefs and culture, in anyway, is inferior to any other. This is why it is important to know where this community consisting of roughly 25% of humanity is coming from.
Where they are coming from is a glorious empire that lasted for about 700 years up until the reconquest of Spain in 1492, until which time they were the leading community in learning and science and were among the most developed, tolerant and harmonious societies on Earth. After 1492 it has been a slow decline which culminated in colonisation and the end of the Ottoman Empire around the end of WW1. This has led to disunity, underdevelopment, dictatorship, repression, poverty and a general feeling of humiliation. Having a history as rich and powerful as the Muslims have experienced inevitably leaves it's mark on the psyche of a nation. In the Muslim mind, the fact that they managed to conquer and rule vast parts of the known world and establish harmonious and prosperous societies on the back of their faith tells them that they could do the same thing again if only they went back to the founding tenets of that faith. Hence the Khilafa Movement and the Wahhabi movement among others, which would have them go back 1400 years to a time that was more favourable to them.What they fail to take into consideration is that the world has moved on. The centres of power have changed. The way the world works has changed. The newer generations are slowly waking up to this fact and also to the fact that if they want to prosper and progress they are going to have to change. In fact they are eager to change, only being prevented from joining the rest of us by repressive dictatorships at home, usually installed and maintained by some foreign power or other and mullahs who see their grip on power being loosened as their congregations get more and more educated. What we in the West can do to help is to stop supporting dictatorships for our short term gains that the Muslims clearly do not want, and stop finger wagging and reminding them of our strength and superiority and by implication their weaknesses and failures at every turn, but rather to encourage them to join us by setting an example of magnanimity,understanding and justice. That is the only way they will see that there is a better way.
This baby is going to be born sooner or later. It's just proving to be a difficult birth.

 

[goalmole]

OH BOY, HERE WE GO.....

French President Francois Hollande has announced that the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier is ready for use in military operations against Islamic State in Iraq. The warship is to work in cooperation with coalition forces combatting the militants.

In a speech onboard the aircraft carrier on Wednesday, Hollande told military personnel that that the Charlie Hebdo massacre carried out by Islamic extremists last week “justifies the presence of our aircraft carrier.”

"Thanks to the Charles de Gaulle we will have intelligence ... we may also conduct operations in Iraq," Hollande said.


The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is the flagship of the French fleet, and is currently cruising off France’s southern coast in the Mediterranean.

The carrier is the largest Western European warship currently in commission, and is France’s only nuclear-powered surface vessel. The ship can carry 20 to 25 aircraft, including Super Etendard strike fighter jets, Rafale M multirole fighter jets and Aster missiles.

The ship’s deployment, during which it will provide airstrikes against Islamic State militants, is expected to last until May at the earliest.


Since last week’s deadly terrorist attacks in Paris which killed 17, authorities have been tightening security as they continue the search for accomplices to the perpetrators. France has deployed 10,000 troops and 120,000 additional security personnel to sensitive areas including Jewish schools, synagogues and mosques.

In the aftermath of the attacks, 54 people, including four minors, have been arrested for defending terrorism and hate speech. None of those arrested have been linked to the attack. Several, however, have already been convicted under special measures for immediate sentencing.

<a class="postlink" href="http://rt.com/news/222647-hollande-aircraft-carrier-islamic-state/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://rt.com/news/222647-hollande-airc ... mic-state/</a>

Chances are it will shortly develop a catapult fault or engine problems.

The EGR valve on it will probably go if Renault have had anything to do with it.

 

[bluemanc]

You don't think a little matter of being 'occupied' had something to play in this then?

That was something like 300 years earlier but you could certainly trace the rise of Islamic fundamentalism to the occupation of Afghanistan by the Russians.

Or the first crusade's of the 11th Century or Billy Hicks advance in the Sudan in the 19th the lists endless.

Or the massive Islamic slave trade from the 10th century,bet they weren't happy when we got involved.
Often wondered why if the Catholics wanted a united Ireland they killed huge numbers of Irish people,kinda defeats the object.

 

[Anonymous]

Make sure the muslim girls parents are not keen on that noble islamic tradition of honor killing then eh.

Sorry, have any non Muslims ever murdered children?. Even their own sometimes?.

Would you not like your sons/daughters to marry a Muslim?.

Non muslims do not kill their own children for dating outside of the religion or even the same religion but a different nuance.
Your starting to sound really stupid now bud tbh.

Your attempt to compare a loon to someone following religious or cultural doctrine is a disgrace.

If i had a daughter and she dated someone with your mentality though i may reconsider ;)

Sometimes non Muslims murder children over equally warped reasons. Sometimes they just murder children just for the hell of it.

They're both wrong for killing children, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

Yet you think I'm starting to sound stupid.

 

[johnmc]

Sorry, have any non Muslims ever murdered children?. Even their own sometimes?.

Would you not like your sons/daughters to marry a Muslim?.

Non muslims do not kill their own children for dating outside of the religion or even the same religion but a different nuance.
Your starting to sound really stupid now bud tbh.

Your attempt to compare a loon to someone following religious or cultural doctrine is a disgrace.

If i had a daughter and she dated someone with your mentality though i may reconsider ;)

Sometimes non Muslims murder children over equally warped reasons. Sometimes they just murder children just for the hell of it.

They're both wrong for killing children, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

Yet you think I'm starting to sound stupid.

5,000 honours killings per year. Of the reasons you refer to are 5,000 linked to the same thing every year or are they all specific incidents.

 

[Anonymous]

Never mind 300 years ago, what about Northern Ireland 40 years ago? A community fed up of what it saw as its second class status and oppression by the ruling class, launched a murderous campaign of shooting and bombing. Many young, disaffected Catholics were either notably sympathetic to the cause or actively took part

You don't think a little matter of being 'occupied' had something to play in this then?

That was something like 300 years earlier but you could certainly trace the rise of Islamic fundamentalism to the occupation of Afghanistan by the Russians.

Was this when the West were allies of Afghanistan and supplied them with billions of dollars, weapons and military training?.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

OH BOY, HERE WE GO.....

French President Francois Hollande has announced that the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier is ready for use in military operations against Islamic State in Iraq. The warship is to work in cooperation with coalition forces combatting the militants.

In a speech onboard the aircraft carrier on Wednesday, Hollande told military personnel that that the Charlie Hebdo massacre carried out by Islamic extremists last week “justifies the presence of our aircraft carrier.”

"Thanks to the Charles de Gaulle we will have intelligence ... we may also conduct operations in Iraq," Hollande said.


The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is the flagship of the French fleet, and is currently cruising off France’s southern coast in the Mediterranean.

The carrier is the largest Western European warship currently in commission, and is France’s only nuclear-powered surface vessel. The ship can carry 20 to 25 aircraft, including Super Etendard strike fighter jets, Rafale M multirole fighter jets and Aster missiles.

The ship’s deployment, during which it will provide airstrikes against Islamic State militants, is expected to last until May at the earliest.


Since last week’s deadly terrorist attacks in Paris which killed 17, authorities have been tightening security as they continue the search for accomplices to the perpetrators. France has deployed 10,000 troops and 120,000 additional security personnel to sensitive areas including Jewish schools, synagogues and mosques.

In the aftermath of the attacks, 54 people, including four minors, have been arrested for defending terrorism and hate speech. None of those arrested have been linked to the attack. Several, however, have already been convicted under special measures for immediate sentencing.

<a class="postlink" href="http://rt.com/news/222647-hollande-aircraft-carrier-islamic-state/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://rt.com/news/222647-hollande-airc ... mic-state/</a>

Chances are it will shortly develop a catapult fault or engine problems.

at least they have a fucking carrier and planes to operate off it.

 

[johnny on the spot]

at least they have a fucking carrier and planes to operate off it.

 

[goalmole]

Non muslims do not kill their own children for dating outside of the religion or even the same religion but a different nuance.
Your starting to sound really stupid now bud tbh.

Your attempt to compare a loon to someone following religious or cultural doctrine is a disgrace.

If i had a daughter and she dated someone with your mentality though i may reconsider ;)

Sometimes non Muslims murder children over equally warped reasons. Sometimes they just murder children just for the hell of it.

They're both wrong for killing children, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

Yet you think I'm starting to sound stupid.

5,000 honours killings per year. Of the reasons you refer to are 5,000 linked to the same thing every year or are they all specific incidents.

Honour killings are not the sole preserve of Muslims. Sikhs, Hindus, Africans, East Europeans and all manner of nationalities and cultures do it. When a Muslim does it, he actually goes against the teachings of his religion i.e he commits a sin. It is an act that is dictated by his culture not his religion.

 

[Anonymous]

Non muslims do not kill their own children for dating outside of the religion or even the same religion but a different nuance.
Your starting to sound really stupid now bud tbh.

Your attempt to compare a loon to someone following religious or cultural doctrine is a disgrace.

If i had a daughter and she dated someone with your mentality though i may reconsider ;)

Sometimes non Muslims murder children over equally warped reasons. Sometimes they just murder children just for the hell of it.

They're both wrong for killing children, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

Yet you think I'm starting to sound stupid.

5,000 honours killings per year. Of the reasons you refer to are 5,000 linked to the same thing every year or are they all specific incidents.

What would your solution be then?, what would you do with Islam/Muslim?.

That's not a trap by the way. You should be able to answer any question honestly, if that's what you truly believe/feel you should be honest enough to answer even if it's a "loaded question", as you put it before.

So what would you do with Islam/Muslims?

Would you be ok if your children married a Muslim? (That's the loaded one from before which you didn't answer).

 

[TCIB]

Non muslims do not kill their own children for dating outside of the religion or even the same religion but a different nuance.
Your starting to sound really stupid now bud tbh.

Your attempt to compare a loon to someone following religious or cultural doctrine is a disgrace.

If i had a daughter and she dated someone with your mentality though i may reconsider ;)

Sometimes non Muslims murder children over equally warped reasons. Sometimes they just murder children just for the hell of it.

They're both wrong for killing children, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

Yet you think I'm starting to sound stupid.

5,000 honours killings per year. Of the reasons you refer to are 5,000 linked to the same thing every year or are they all specific incidents.

Not aimed at you this post John :-)

Is your aim here to say islam does not condone honor killings and they are unrelated.

If not why the fumbling around and hand wringing?

I never mentioned others you did in some weird attempt to cloud the point i made.
You saw your arse and are now wittering on about all killings being bad.
Yeah no shit sherlock, put your mensa trophy down a second and understand this...

Islam condones these killings in a cultural sense, as others do but is is predominantly a muslim act.

You would have been better saying "so what big nose, hindu's commit honor killings also but they are considered ok people."

Now lets be serious, my aim was to highlight parts of islamic culture that no westerner can comprehend.
This was to counter your idealistic throw away remark regarding cultural diversity.

The only way your ideal of everyone getting along has a chance if religion is wiped out.
Beyond that your talking nonsense because it is the final truth, it knows best and that is that, anyone disagreeing will find out what a rusty bread knife feels like.
Not a good basis for peace and harmony i think you will grant me.
The chances are we never will all get along but i would like to give humanity a chance without the tool of religion being available as a reason to hinder it at least.

I don't feel this debate can go any further anyway, i also cba with this thread.
Time to watch dumb and dumber to (yes this is my level of sophistication, insert any other glib comments here)

 

[johnmc]

Sometimes non Muslims murder children over equally warped reasons. Sometimes they just murder children just for the hell of it.

They're both wrong for killing children, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

Yet you think I'm starting to sound stupid.

5,000 honours killings per year. Of the reasons you refer to are 5,000 linked to the same thing every year or are they all specific incidents.

What would your solution be then?, what would you do with Islam/Muslim?.

That's not a trap by the way. You should be able to answer any question honestly, if that's what you truly believe/feel you should be honest enough to answer even if it's a "loaded question", as you put it before.

So what would you do with Islam/Muslims?

Would you be ok if your children married a Muslim? (That's the loaded one from before which you didn't answer).

It's not really I case of what I would do is it. It's a case of what Muslims should do themselves. The same way that if the Catholic church has factions within its membership that have caused problems both within and outside the church as has been the cae, that they need to take actions to correct them (as well as the law obviously). That's by widespread condemnation of the acts, by education of its members etc. maybe this is happening and it isn't reported. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me more.

However, from what I can see there are prominent members/clerics of the Islamic faith that are willing to stand outside a mosque in London for example and incite violence against non believers, that have praised the 9/11 bombings and generally preach hatred. Can you imagine a priest standing out a church saying peadophilia is a god given right? The majority would shout them down and make complaints accordingly. I'm positive the majority of Muslims are good people. But there seems to be a growing number that seem to be willing to carry out attroticites in the name of religion. I have seen Breviks name mentioned on this thread as an example of how this can happen in any religion and of course it can. That was in 2011, and was the only example I can think of in recent times of a similar occurrence not involving Muslims.

So in answer to your question I think the solution need to come from within.

And I have no problem with any man who marries my daughters that treats her well, treats her as an equal, doesn't try to control her and loves her as much as possible. I couldn't care less what his religion is if he satisfies that.

 

[Anonymous]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.examiner.com/article/honor-killings-lies-damn-lies-and-statistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.examiner.com/article/honor-k ... statistics</a>

It's not 5,000 Muslim honor killings. It's 5,000 women and girls murdered by members of their own family. Huge difference! Women murdered in America would be included as part of that statistic. The report does say many (not most) of them are honor killings, and the majority of honor killings are in Muslim majority countries, but it makes no estimate as to how many that is. I'm not trying to diminish the issue, just refine the statistics. Honor killings are a major problem.

Now, let's give it some perspective.

Let's accept the 5,000 number as our first sample, flawed as it is. We'll presume all 5,000 women and girls murdered by members of their own families are Muslim, even though we know that's not true, and put motive aside for the moment. A recent report from the The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that there are an estimated 1.57 billion Muslims in the world, which is approaching 25% of the world population. We'll use that as our second sample. That's 3.2 per Million Muslim women murdered by their family annually.

Now, lets look at America.

According the FBI Expanded Homicide Data There were 14,180 US murders in 2008. Of those, 930 were women and girls murdered by their own families. We'll use that as our first sample. According to The Bartleby World Factbook for 2008 the United States had approximately 301 million people the year these statistics were gathered. So, let's accept that as our second sample. That's 3.1 per Million American women murdered by their family annually.

So the difference between the rate at which Muslims murder women in their family and Americans murder women in their family is 1 per 10 Million. That's a statistically insignificant difference, especially considering we know the 5,000 sample would actually include the 930 American murders.


------------------


We can all find the 5000 figure on the Internet, sadly that's as far as you needed to go because at that point the information fitted your understanding. Fortunately I am capable of critical thinking and my though process urges me to dig a little deeper to see how that figure was arrived at. Rather than take things on face value.

Families killing their own loved ones is not exclusive to Islam/Muslims.

 

[Anonymous]

Sometimes non Muslims murder children over equally warped reasons. Sometimes they just murder children just for the hell of it.

They're both wrong for killing children, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

Yet you think I'm starting to sound stupid.

5,000 honours killings per year. Of the reasons you refer to are 5,000 linked to the same thing every year or are they all specific incidents.

Not aimed at you this post John :-)

Is your aim here to say islam does not condone honor killings and they are unrelated.

If not why the fumbling around and hand wringing?

I never mentioned others you did in some weird attempt to cloud the point i made.
You saw your arse and are now wittering on about all killings being bad.
Yeah no shit sherlock, put your mensa trophy down a second and understand this...

Islam condones these killings in a cultural sense, as others do but is is predominantly a muslim act.

You would have been better saying "so what big nose, hindu's commit honor killings also but they are considered ok people."

Now lets be serious, my aim was to highlight parts of islamic culture that no westerner can comprehend.
This was to counter your idealistic throw away remark regarding cultural diversity.

The only way your ideal of everyone getting along has a chance if religion is wiped out.
Beyond that your talking nonsense because it is the final truth, it knows best and that is that, anyone disagreeing will find out what a rusty bread knife feels like.
Not a good basis for peace and harmony i think you will grant me.
The chances are we never will all get along but i would like to give humanity a chance without the tool of religion being available as a reason to hinder it at least.

I don't feel this debate can go any further anyway, i also cba with this thread.
Time to watch dumb and dumber to (yes this is my level of sophistication, insert any other glib comments here)

Do you not think it would be better if our children intermarried and got along?. Black/white, Muslim/Jew, Christian/atheist!.

This for us in the UK is a very realistic possibility, one I would welcome and embrace.

 

[Anonymous]

5,000 honours killings per year. Of the reasons you refer to are 5,000 linked to the same thing every year or are they all specific incidents.

What would your solution be then?, what would you do with Islam/Muslim?.

That's not a trap by the way. You should be able to answer any question honestly, if that's what you truly believe/feel you should be honest enough to answer even if it's a "loaded question", as you put it before.

So what would you do with Islam/Muslims?

Would you be ok if your children married a Muslim? (That's the loaded one from before which you didn't answer).

It's not really I case of what I would do is it. It's a case of what Muslims should do themselves. The same way that if the Catholic church has factions within its membership that have caused problems both within and outside the church as has been the cae, that they need to take actions to correct them (as well as the law obviously). That's by widespread condemnation of the acts, by education of its members etc. maybe this is happening and it isn't reported. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me more.

However, from what I can see there are prominent members/clerics of the Islamic faith that are willing to stand outside a mosque in London for example and incite violence against non believers, that have praised the 9/11 bombings and generally preach hatred. Can you imagine a priest standing out a church saying peadophilia is a god given right? The majority would shout them down and make complaints accordingly. I'm positive the majority of Muslims are good people. But there seems to be a growing number that seem to be willing to carry out attroticites in the name of religion. I have seen Breviks name mentioned on this thread as an example of how this can happen in any religion and of course it can. That was in 2011, and was the only example I can think of in recent times of a similar occurrence not involving Muslims.

So in answer to your question I think the solution need to come from within.

And I have no problem with any man who marries my daughters that treats her well, treats her as an equal, doesn't try to control her and loves her as much as possible. I couldn't care less what his religion is if he satisfies that.

Your sons could also marry a Muslim!.

 

[johnmc]

http://www.examiner.com/article/honor-killings-lies-damn-lies-and-statistics

It's not 5,000 Muslim honor killings. It's 5,000 women and girls murdered by members of their own family. Huge difference! Women murdered in America would be included as part of that statistic. The report does say many (not most) of them are honor killings, and the majority of honor killings are in Muslim majority countries, but it makes no estimate as to how many that is. I'm not trying to diminish the issue, just refine the statistics. Honor killings are a major problem.

Now, let's give it some perspective.

Let's accept the 5,000 number as our first sample, flawed as it is. We'll presume all 5,000 women and girls murdered by members of their own families are Muslim, even though we know that's not true, and put motive aside for the moment. A recent report from the The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that there are an estimated 1.57 billion Muslims in the world, which is approaching 25% of the world population. We'll use that as our second sample. That's 3.2 per Million Muslim women murdered by their family annually.

Now, lets look at America.

According the FBI Expanded Homicide Data There were 14,180 US murders in 2008. Of those, 930 were women and girls murdered by their own families. We'll use that as our first sample. According to The Bartleby World Factbook for 2008 the United States had approximately 301 million people the year these statistics were gathered. So, let's accept that as our second sample. That's 3.1 per Million American women murdered by their family annually.

So the difference between the rate at which Muslims murder women in their family and Americans murder women in their family is 1 per 10 Million. That's a statistically insignificant difference, especially considering we know the 5,000 sample would actually include the 930 American murders.


------------------


We can all find the 5000 figure on the Internet, sadly that's as far as you needed to go because at that point the information fitted your understanding. Fortunately I am capable of critical thinking and my though process urges me to dig a little deeper to see how that figure was arrived at. Rather than take things on face value.

Families killing their own loved ones is not exclusive to Islam/Muslims.

Ha, you say I am capable of using information to suit my argument. There is a difference between an honour killing and being murdered by a member of your family. In honour killings you cannot "put motives aside". An honour killing is on the whole due to the perpertraitor believing shame has been brought upon the family and in the majority of incidents are due to a perceived violation of religious principles. The U.S. has only a small percentage of these 5,000. Although I concede the numbers are unlikely to be accurate. However you analysis seems to rule out the possibility of there being American Muslims?

<a class="postlink" href="http://hbv-awareness.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://hbv-awareness.com</a>

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

It's not really I case of what I would do is it. It's a case of what Muslims should do themselves. The same way that if the Catholic church has factions within its membership that have caused problems both within and outside the church as has been the cae, that they need to take actions to correct them (as well as the law obviously). That's by widespread condemnation of the acts, by education of its members etc. maybe this is happening and it isn't reported. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me more.

However, from what I can see there are prominent members/clerics of the Islamic faith that are willing to stand outside a mosque in London for example and incite violence against non believers, that have praised the 9/11 bombings and generally preach hatred. Can you imagine a priest standing out a church saying peadophilia is a god given right? The majority would shout them down and make complaints accordingly. I'm positive the majority of Muslims are good people. But there seems to be a growing number that seem to be willing to carry out attroticites in the name of religion. I have seen Breviks name mentioned on this thread as an example of how this can happen in any religion and of course it can. That was in 2011, and was the only example I can think of in recent times of a similar occurrence not involving Muslims.

So in answer to your question I think the solution need to come from within.

The problem with saying that is that there is no central Muslim authority, in the same way that there is a Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury. And even things they say aren't necessarily meekly accepted. If we accept the need t have Freedom of Expression, that means we accept that people are free to express things that we may not want to hear or that we vehemently disagree with.

But even then, it's not words but actions that we need to deal with. People encouraging others to take part in violence, either here or abroad, need to be identified and dealt with by the security services and police. That's happening. We can expel hate preachers but they can just go somewhere where they are more at liberty to preach hate and where we can't monitor them quite as closely. Better to have them inside the tent pissing out, to quote Lyndon Johnson.

The most worrying thing for me are the young people going to Syria & Iraq to take part in the violence. Some will be killed, some will see that it's not quite as glamorous as it was painted and some will come back to carry on the struggle here. These are the people we have to root out and deal with. My solution would be to intern them, in the same way we did with Nazis after WWII, and assess and, if necessary, get moderate imams to re-educate them until they're no longer considered a danger to the public. That may well create a stir among some sections of society but I think that's what we need to do.