So easy to play through

This x100. It's ridiculous how we have stuck with a totally broken system for so long. We badly needed a deep lying positionally disciplined midfielder to play behind Fernandinho and Yaya. Firstly it would allow Yaya to not try and play box to box, secondly a technically capable deeper player would also stop Yaya from having to drop so deep to pick up the ball, meaning we would actually start our attack with an extra attacker (as Yaya would maintain a more attacking position) and thirdly, Fernandinho can press without leaving a huge gap around him.

But no, he went with a 2.

I was saying to my friends as I watched the game, look how easy United play 1-2s around the centre of the pitch and they are away. We were much more solid when Fernando came on, even though we still didn't play 3 in midfield as he moved Dinho into centre back, Fernando was much better at closing down the space and reading the play. Frustratingly or luckily, depending which way you want to look at it, he was only brought on because sterling got injured. That idiot would have sat there until the 60th minute before changing it up.

It rally was criminal the way he set us up yesterday. Can't wait for him to go.
 
Brilliant post ono. Toure has been a luxury all season. Why the fuck does he play him inbetween the midfield and centre forward? It achieves precisely fuck all unless the player is full of running. No chasing down defenders, leaving Aguero to run around like a tasmanian devil, no cover for the other 2 mid's and very little influence attacking. If MP is gonna play that system then use Nacho, at least he has the energy and desire
 
From watching the game yesterday and seeing Lingard, Rashford, Mata and Martial waltz through us with ease it, and after seeing Spurs, Leicester, West Ham etc all do the same thing at the Etihad it made me wonder how teams do this to us.

After a bit of re-watching it's clear to see that our problem lies firstly with the way that we press and secondly with the fact that when we utilise a midfield 2, we struggle to pick up runners, specifically attacking midfielders because we still try and press in the exact same manner as we do when we have a midfield 3.

It is clear to see that our defensive players and defensive minded midfield players are being told to press aggressively, meaning they should vacate their positions somewhat to intercept or tackle. We have all seen Otamendi do this to varying degrees of success (and failure) - Mahrez took advantage of it at the Etihad and Liverpool did a couple of times at Anfield.

When it works, it is a visually powerful thing to see. For example, Sevilla away and Kiev away, Fernandinho (in the Sevilla game) was exceptional with the number of aggressive interceptions he made, which lead to a counter. Fernando likewise against Kiev. Now, when you make these decision as part of a midfield central 3, you have a little bit more fall back as the team is more compact which means that the vacated space left by a interceptor is much smaller than it is when you have a lesser number of defensive players on the pitch.

However, when you are in a midfield 2 like yesterday there needs to be an adjustment or some sort of ban on this type of pressing where Fernandinho or Fernando (dependent on who is playing) try to engage or press on the half way line or even in the opponents half, because time and time again it causes us big problems. I've already gone over the Mahrez goal where a couple of players totally sold themselves -

If you rewatch you can see Fernandinho tries to press Kante on the half way line, and Otamendi steps into the midfield area to close down the space, totally selling himself in the process. That goal is totally stopped if Fernandinho or Otamendi simply contain the play.



Fast forward to the 2nd Spurs goal and again our midfield isn't really there. Yaya is outnumbered and loses the ball. Fernandinho was slightly behind him but not in a defensive position so there was space between our midfield and our defence. Considering at this point in the game we are playing a 4-4-2, there needs to be communication between Yaya and Fernandinho as one of them has to be responsible for the gap between themeselves and the backline. In this case, since Yaya is the ball carrier, it should be Fernandinho. Anyway, Lamela (who isn't being picked up by anybody) gets in the space and Otamendi engages, square on, only to have the ball played through him for Eriksen to score -




And this got me thinking back to other similar sort of goals we have conceded while playing with a midfield 2.
This is Moses at the Etihad in our 2-1 loss to West Ham. Once again, Fernandinho engages a West Ham player in his own half, who flicks the ball round him before running into the space behind him. Yaya isn't really concentrating and only reacts to the situation when the player is running past him. In turn this leads to a goal, although you could argue we still had enough players back to deal with the situation.

-



Finally if you look back to the Rashford goal yesterday, you will see the exact same thing happen(if you freeze it to 4 seconds you will see the point i am about to make). Fernandinho again tries to engage the opposition in their own half. This time it is Mata and he is trying to press on to Mata's first touch with the hope of intercepting a springing a counter. This would be fantastic in a midfield 3, but in a midfield 2, it is suicide, especially since Mata is the one United player with a reliable first touch. Anyway, he brings it down, engages Fernandinho, plays a simple one-two around him and he is in, attacking the space vacated by Fernandinho. Toure can't react quick enough to cover as he is also in line with Fernandinho. To make matters worse Demichellis tries to aggressively win the ball back by going to ground, again without thought to what is behind him (a giant goal with only Joe Hart stood in it) and they score.




I could go on and on and this isn't a dig at Fernandinho, he isn't the problem at all. He is being left short handed whilst being asked to do too much. The same goes for Yaya in a 2 (he is expected to contribute to too many phases of play). It's a massive problem with the way we set up and how we do not adapt our pressing game or intercepting game when we go from a midfield 3 to a midfield 2. Fernandinho just happens to be at the heart of this post because he is probably the chief presser in the team and the hardest working player. What should actually happen in a 2 is we should show more patience in winning the ball back, containing the opposition which in turn might actually open up a bit of space behind their own backline (once they advance a little).



This is where Pellegrini should show his knowledge really. The fact that he still either informs the team to press like this, or allows them to continually do it regardless is absolutely criminal. Neither Fernandinho or Yaya are really disciplined enough to play in a 2. Yaya isn't defensively disciplined and Fernandinho isn't disciplined enough to stay in his position. His game is based around aggressively closing space. They both need a player to sit behind them to shield the back 4 so they can both get on with their normal games. This is why we instantly look more solid as soon as Fernando comes on or starts. Yaya's doesn't have to track back to his own box, and Fernandinho isn't punished by a missed interception (let's face it, he isn't going to have a 100% success ratio) - yet often against decent teams, Pellegrini is setting them both up in a midfield 2.

All that's happening at the minute against the decent sides is that they are drawing Fernandinho out of position to exploit the space behind him, which leads to a clear run at a totally reactionary defence. Yaya can't cover because he is either ahead of the ball or he is closer to closing down the other opposition midfielder (as per yesterday) and the result is we are got at time and time again. Funnily enough the non-stop running of Fernandinho contrasted with Yaya's 'laid back' running style, coupled with the fact that we are constantly sliced open leads people to believing that the fault solely lies with Yaya, for being 'lazy' when actually, the problem goes much deeper than that and actually still exists when he doesn't play.

Anyway, It has been happening all season and is one of the largest contributing factors to our lack of success against the better sides, especially when we have gone with a 2 man midfield. But Pellegrini seemingly hasn't noticed this and we will continue to play his brand of football which is totally at odds with the personnel on the pitch. Roll on next season eh.


That's when we haven't got the ball, i'll raise you when we have........no movement

I lost count the amount of times we had the ball in central and wide positions and there was absoulutely no movement whatsoever, we're getting in some great positions early but nulify our attack by the lack of movement off the ball, frustrating to say the least.
 
Its a great post @ono and one that really does make you think how much we scout our opposition as against trusting us to impose our style of play on them (whatever our style of play is nowadays)!! Now I have never attended a UEFA licensed training sessions but I do think that having watched games for 40 years or so now I have a little bit of tactical awareness. It seems that 'to press' is the latest ideology of how football must be played. However, the effectiveness of pressing is dependant on a number of factors, players with the ability to perform at a high physical level, the correct shape of our side and, paradoxically, one of the most important factors being the strength and style of play of the opposition.

An effective press, as shown in Kiev, entails a holding player (Fernando) allowing the two other midfielders to take a higher line so from the start our shape was wrong. Yaya and David Silva are only effective pressers when assisted by others (shape and team being wrong in this aspect yesterday with the willing, but lightweight, Sterling and Navas alongside). Finally, I'm sure 90% of us blues know enough of this current United team to know there strength lies in their pace up front rather than the guile of their setup play. To me, sit deep, allow them to have the ball in front of our defensive 6 and nullify their one main strength of pace. But what do we do!!! Press high up, leave enormous gaps in the middle third that we saw against Leicester and Spurs (far better teams than United) and expose our nervous centre half!!

To sum up I think Pellers got it wrong again!! Wrong formation, wrong personnel, any scouting of the opposition?? He only ever seems to stumble on a solution rather than think of one himself.

But then again I'm sat here in my office earning in a year what he probably gets in a week so what do I know!!
 
Spot on. It took an injury to Sterling for him to bring Fernando on and once he did we looked so much more solid in midfield. Midfield 3 for the remaining games and we might stand a chance.
 
This has been going on from the very start of Pellegrini's time with us, where have you all been? Watch the Bayern Munich game in his first season here and it's all there in it's glorious ineptitude.
 
Brilliant post ono. Toure has been a luxury all season. Why the fuck does he play him inbetween the midfield and centre forward? It achieves precisely fuck all unless the player is full of running. No chasing down defenders, leaving Aguero to run around like a tasmanian devil, no cover for the other 2 mid's and very little influence attacking. If MP is gonna play that system then use Nacho, at least he has the energy and desire
it really isn't Yaya that's the problem. Ono has articulated nicely what the vast majority have known for most of this season. We need a 3 in central midfield to compete. As soon as the team was announced yesterday, you could write the script. I had a look at the Guess the team thread for yesterday. Over 90% of bluemooners chose the team with a three of Yaya, Fernando and Fernandinho. And that was before we new Oto was definitely out. It would have been 100% if that had been known. Everyone can see it except Pellers who makes the mistake time and time again whilst expecting a different outcome. That truly is the definition of lunacy.
 
Any team that has both Yaya and Silva in it will be easy to play through as you will always be outworked in the middle. If you move Yaya further forwards then you add protection to your defence, but completely give up any high press option as with both him and Silva you just don't have enough energy or desire to put the pressure on higher up the pitch. I think you can manage with one or the other, but with both of them you are fighting an uphill battle to both protect your defence and get any pressure up the pitch
 
We were talking about this on here pre season when Pogba was being lined up, basically hoping (& believing) that Pellegrini would of course realise that a midfield two, especially if one is Yaya, would not be the way to go except perhaps vs the weakest teams, this even if we had Pogba as an option.

We have had Sterling, Silva, DeBruyne, Aguero but the logical thing is to play 3 of that 4 & a solid midfield behind them. Then it also allows Fern & or Yaya to attack & also potentially provides cover for the fullbacks to get forward & we have a top attacking player on the bench to bring on.

Our best performances have been when we lined up in that kind of situation with a midfield 3. In the cup final he still kind of shoehorned a 442 but Fernandinho was so fantastic that he played wing centre mid & fullback all at the same time, thus creating the 3 when needed.

No human being can do a job like that every game, & very few players can do it at all, so it's a one/two game 'tactic' at best.

Yesyerday even when Fernando came on, the OC still shoehorned a 442 ish system with Yaya often up front 'pressing'. Yaya pressing a back 4 with Silva etc! What kind of fucking madman thinks that's the best option out of all the players at our disposal ? If Xabi Alonso or Pirlo played for City, would this idiot have them chasing down defenders in the oppo half ?

The excuses re injuries etc are exactly that. If everyone was fit, this fucking clown would pick the wrong 11 & the wrong system 90% of the time.

If anyone took a look at Shweinsteiger when he came on, absolute fucking comedy dogshit & that team is a fucking point behind us.

Injuries my arse.

Brendan Rogers would have this squad right behind or even ahead of Leicester with a bunch of kids involved & use about 4 systems, all of which would involve getting bodies into midfield to at least try & either press or dominate.

Here's an example of Pellegrini: we all know Sagna can play centre back.

How often have we seen him played there in two years ? Just to test it ?

No planning at all.
 

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