Spain v England - Sun 14th July, 20:00 | Euro 2024 Final

[1961_vintage]

And, in this recent tournament, his spinelessness when it came to Bellingham, allowing him to essentially take over the team and make it all about himself, forcing half the team to play out of position to allow Bellingham a free role, to England’s detriment, infuriated me.

Unforgivable this.

 

[bridgeno1]

I thought Bellingham did better in the final than previous games, where he'd be sitting in the stands if he'd played like that for a Pep team, but as has been mentioned on here he is definitely Pogba like and individual talented players can raise their games against better opponents.

But to me this raises the issue of Grealish. I accept that England won't be able to play as patiently as City as it takes an awful lot of work and inspiration on the training ground and I don't think neither the pundits (like Lee "Get the ball forward quickly" Dixon) nor England fans would accept it. However Arsenal play in a similar way to City so if there's Rice, Saka, Foden and Grealish in the team then surely they must be able to keep hold of the ball and if Bellingham is then added to it he could be told to "Pass the fucking ball".

And talking of club combinations Maguire had been dire for the rags for years, Southgate hadn't blooded any replacements in all these internationals they play and to me got lucky with Guehi. However if he'd stumbled on Guehi 6 months earlier then it would had raised the issue of taking Tyrick Mitchell as the left footed left back. Then with club partnerships and understandings all over the pitch it wouldn't be that difficult to introduce a basic form of possession based football.

I've seen you mention Ramsdale as the keeper and I think that was also very unfortunate for England that he was dropped by Arsenal. If Southgate had any courage then dropping Pickford for Ramsdale would had been his Pep/Joe Hart moment.


The below team surely must be able to keep possession and there's also players in there who can produce big moments:


Ramsdale

Walker
Stones
Guehi
Mitchell

Rice
Bellingham
Foden

Saka
Kane/Watkins
Grealish

Got to have Mainoo in the team. He and Rice will be our CM partnership for the next 8 years unless a new talent breaks through.

Foden and Bellingham are the issue - I'm not sure we can play both. What we lack is a Tony Kroos type midfielder who can spray passes around. Rice can't do it - at Arsenal he has Jorginho to do that or is told 'don't piss about, just get the fucking ball to Odegaard'. Rodri CAN spray it around for Spain though (that's actually the main difference between him and Rice (taking City/Arsenal glasses off). Rice and Rodri are similar in being able to run all day, support the defence and then join up with the attack however Rodri is a much better passer of the ball than Rice.

I thick Carrick is probably the last English midfielder who could control the middle but also spray killer passes through. So in the absence of that Kroos type player if we are to retain both Foden AND Bellingham in the same team there needs to be instructions that Rice/Mainoo get it to Foden, Bellingham has a freer role and can drive forward on the ball. And hopefully we have a striker who is (crazy concept I know) prepared to make runs in the box/behind the defence and let Foden play through. Would make Saka more effective as well to have someone actually in the box to receive a cross when he beats his man, instead of getting past someone, seeing there's nobody in the middle and having to pass it back to Walker.

 

[bridgeno1]

After watching the game last night it seems painfully obvious why City have won 4 leagues on the bounce.
We are streets ahead of the rest of the leagues tactics.
If City played Spain, even if they had Rodri, we would destroy them.

I think any of the Top 3 PL sides would beat Spain. If England were a PL side they'd be on par with Everton, but even more boring (if that's even possible).

 

[mattcity5]

Got to have Mainoo in the team. He and Rice will be our CM partnership for the next 8 years unless a new talent breaks through.

Foden and Bellingham are the issue - I'm not sure we can play both. What we lack is a Tony Kroos type midfielder who can spray passes around. Rice can't do it - at Arsenal he has Jorginho to do that or is told 'don't piss about, just get the fucking ball to Odegaard'. Rodri CAN spray it around for Spain though (that's actually the main difference between him and Rice (taking City/Arsenal glasses off). Rice and Rodri are similar in being able to run all day, support the defence and then join up with the attack however Rodri is a much better passer of the ball than Rice.

I thick Carrick is probably the last English midfielder who could control the middle but also spray killer passes through. So in the absence of that Kroos type player if we are to retain both Foden AND Bellingham in the same team there needs to be instructions that Rice/Mainoo get it to Foden, Bellingham has a freer role and can drive forward on the ball. And hopefully we have a striker who is (crazy concept I know) prepared to make runs in the box/behind the defence and let Foden play through. Would make Saka more effective as well to have someone actually in the box to receive a cross when he beats his man, instead of getting past someone, seeing there's nobody in the middle and having to pass it back to Walker.

I'm not 100% convinced in Mainoo yet. He's played in part because he's at united and also in part because our other options aren't very inspiring. He's not at the level he needs to be at for me - yet. He may get there, but he might not.

I'm not being too biased here. The kid has a chance. But ideally he's a sub learning the role and playing a part here and there, not somebody we need to rely on at his age.

 

[burning blue soul]

It’s not bitterness. It’s the truth. You were dross from first to last. I’m sorry if you missed that. It’s not my fault. Or, I would argue Southgate’s totally. Your world class superstars aren’t world class. World class players usually turn up.

It was, mostly, Southgate choosing players unsuited to dealing with Spains attributes. He went with loyalty rather than being pragmatic.
He was severely out of his depth.
The English players play great football in teams that have a cohesive plan. Southgate shoehorned the same players in every game expecting (hoping) individual brilliance to strike at some point.
Sometimes it did. Even so, he has not got the minerals to stand up to the players. He must be viewed as weak.
He looks weak.

 

[bridgeno1]

Just saw these stats. All I'll say is if City get 5 titles on the bounce that will be the greatest achievement based on the data below,

 

[GortonBlue62]

Would you not consider any English players world class?

Sure, some didn't perform, it can happen to the very best. Messi didn't particularly shine in the 2010 world cup. He used to actually get criticised by Argentina fans at one point around that time until they started winning things. They used to say he's not the same player for Argentina as he was for Barcelona. Obviously it changed over time. But for a while he was accused of not turning up for a Argentina when it matterd, he didn't get the love there that others did for a time.

So I wouldn't be judging players being world class on whether they had poor tournament in a poorly managed team. It's like saying De Bruyne isn't world class because Belgium under performed many times as a team. We know he clearly is world class though.

Do you think Pep Guardiola would have Foden in his team as a 10, winning leagues and picking up player of the year if he didn't think he was world class. He would look like a fish out of water at City if he wasn't world class, yet he was player of the season. If you're not top notch, you don't cut it at City and get found out quickly, ask Mr Phillips.

There is some world class English players among some overhyped and some bang average ones. I don't think the England squad on paper is anywhere near as good as people say, but there's absolutely a few quality players who play and win things at the very top level and shine in top teams. A top champions league side would dick an modern international side, it would barely be competitive.

On the other hand, Andy Robertson is about the best player Scotland have produced in about 40 years and he's just slightly above average.

Just ignore the scotch ****.

 

[bridgeno1]

I'm not 100% convinced in Mainoo yet. He's played in part because he's at united and also in part because our other options aren't very inspiring. He's not at the level he needs to be at for me - yet. He may get there, but he might not.

I'm not being too biased here. The kid has a chance. But ideally he's a sub learning the role and playing a part here and there, not somebody we need to rely on at his age.

Yeah I can see that and he's for sure not a generational talent like some of the media make him out to be. What impressed me about him though was how confident he was. Plus we don't really have many other options currently.

 

[mattcity5]

I think any of the Top 3 PL sides would beat Spain. If England were a PL side they'd be on par with Everton, but even more boring (if that's even possible).

Agreed. And I don't actually think Spain were all that, which adds to the disappointment of another missed chance for England. Same with Italy at the last Euros, this isn't a team to be in awe of, there are weaknesses there for teams to get at, if they are brave enough.

 

[elbearos]

I'm sure Spain wet themselves when they saw Mainoo and Rice were playing