Spain v England - Sun 14th July, 20:00 | Euro 2024 Final

[mattcity5]

Johnny Boulders was immense in CD.

Imagine what attacking outlet he could have been had he used him in the DM role that Pep uses him for.

And he's probably got 1 World Cup and maybe 1 Euros remaining. Hopefully it'll be with a new manager who instills a requirement to be able to play from the back. If you want a team to play out and keep possession, you want John Stones. When he's gone, who's going to come in? There's no replacement for him.

 

[Magicpole]

You are right that England are good at backing themselves to win, but the truth is they have the players. What they lack is a top top manager. Pep wins everything with this squad.

Pep has real world class players, not presumed that because they’re English. I suppose it depends on what we mean today by world class. You have Foden and apart from a couple of spells, he was also shit. Player of tourney for you, Stones. That’s it. You played half a dozen games and of that about 50 minutes actually good. Not great, good. None of them are world class. Even if Pep took over, you would still have overhyped players who simply aren’t on the same level as the better teams. You watched it. How could you or anybody miss how overrated they really are? It’s as obvious as it is how shit Scotiand are. We accept that. You are looking for a new manager to turn a shit team into world beaters. Dream on. Could he get them to play better? You would hope so, the bar is low. Without an easy draw and a dodgy penalty you would have been home five days after us. Last night you were awful. In fact the whole tournament you sucked ass. It’s really that simple. You shouid he rejoicing that such a shit team at least got there. Convincing yourself a new manager turns it around to win things? Step away from the solvents. Another few steps, keep going. Now you’re safe.

Southgate is getting it right about not being attacking minded. Yet, those world class attacking players, failed. Why?

Because of Southgate, or,

They’re not as good as you make them out?

It’s the second option.

 

[Luddite_Blue]

With the ultra cautious way Southgate set up he put himself in a position, to me, where he had to win it to get any real credit.

I'd argue that Ron Greenwood in 1982, Bobby Robson in 1990 and Terry Venables in 1996, who were all better club managers. produced better campaigns than any Southgate has.

In Spain 1982 England went home undefeated beating the France team of Platini, Battiston, Rocheteau and Giresse (and who would win the Euros 2 years later) to top the group. Results in other groups meant England faced West Germany and Spain in a 3 team group for a place in the semi finals whereas runners up France got Northern Ireland and Austria. The West Germany team of Stielike, Manny Kaltz, Breitner and Rummenigge (who'd won the Euros 2 years previously) were content enough with a 0-0 draw with England, then beat Spain 2-1 and England were unable to get the 2-0 victory needed against the hosts to proceed.

In 1990 Robson's England got better game by game really digging deep to overcome Belgium and Cameroon before losing an epic semi final on penalties to the West Germany of Breheme, Hassler, Matthaus, Voller and Klinsmann.

In 1996 England played well after the first game notably hammering a Dutch team containing Van der Sar, Seedorf, de Boer and Bergkamp 4-1 before being a Gascoigne toe nail away from beating a Matthias Sammer inspired Germany and subsequently losing on penalties.

In all of the above the draws were unfavourable with less difficult teams awaiting in the finals of 1990 and 1996. England played on the front foot, had a real go, left no regrets and were undone by a bit of misfortune and quality German sides of real resilience who didn't actually beat us over 90/120 minutes.

The overwhelming sense left by the Southgate campaigns is one of "What If" where he's had the best collection of English attacking talent in 15 years, and with quite comfortably the most expensive squad in the competition, I think if he'd had a real go and come up short then people would had accepted it.

 

[SebastianBlue]

With the ultra cautious way Southgate set up he put himself in a position, to me, where he had to win it to get any real credit.

I'd argue that Ron Greenwood in 1982, Bobby Robson in 1990 and Terry Venables in 1996, who were all better club managers. produced better campaigns than any Southgate has.

In Spain 1982 England went home undefeated beating the France team of Platini, Battiston, Rocheteau and Giresse (and who would win the Euros 2 years later) to top the group. Results in other groups meant England faced West Germany and Spain in a 3 team group for a place in the semi finals whereas runners up France got Northern Ireland and Austria. The West Germany team of Stielike, Manny Kaltz, Breitner and Rummenigge (who'd won the Euros 2 years previously) were content enough with a 0-0 draw with England, then beat Spain 2-1 and England were unable to get the 2-0 victory needed against the hosts to proceed.

In 1990 Robson's England got better game by game really digging deep to overcome Belgium and Cameroon before losing an epic semi final on penalties to the West Germany of Breheme, Hassler, Matthaus, Voller and Klinsmann.

In 1996 England played well after the first game notably hammering a Dutch team containing Van der Sar, Seedorf, de Boer and Bergkamp 4-1 before being a Gascoigne toe nail away from beating a Matthias Sammer inspired Germany and subsequently losing on penalties.

In all of the above the draws were unfavourable with less difficult teams awaiting in the finals of 1990 and 1996. England played on the front foot, had a real go, left no regrets and were undone by a bit of misfortune and quality German sides of real resilience who didn't actually beat us over 90/120 minutes.

The overwhelming sense left by the Southgate campaigns is one of "What If" where he's had the best collection of English attacking talent in 15 years, and with quite comfortably the most expensive squad in the competition, I think if he'd had a real go and come up short then people would had accepted it.

Agree with this completely, especially your last sentence, as it is exactly what I have been saying for several years now.

The best way I can summarise my issue with Southgate is that in nearly every game he appeared to setup the team not to lose, rather than to win, and I just cannot tolerate that as a fan of football (not just England), especially when it leads to no actual silverware.

And, in this recent tournament, his spinelessness when it came to Bellingham, allowing him to essentially take over the team and make it all about himself, forcing half the team to play out of position to allow Bellingham a free role, to England’s detriment, infuriated me.

 

[Magicpole]

Admit it, you were dreading England winning something. It’s doesn’t matter if we fluke it or deserve it, England winning a trophy hits hard into the Scottish psyche. Try getting past a first round then we might be able to have a conversation.

You’re right, I didn’t want them to win, not for the reasons you think. I wanted a team who played great football to win. Not a team who haven’t had a tough game in years, who were utter shit to watch win. Bad for the game.

Because we will never get out a group, doesn’t mean I don’t know what a great team, or real world class players look like. And none were wearing an England top.

We did beat Spain in the qualifying group. A real group. Who was in your group again? Lapland, The Faroes and the local scout team. You have got draws that if the Dippers had similar draws snd easy routes woukd be calling for a bribery scandal. Yet, even with all that, you were still shit to watch and were lucky as fuck to get out of the last 16. You got to the final by playing no ****. The only way it was even possible.

Don’t worry though, the next World Cup is coming home. Or is it the one after? If not that then certainly definitely the one after that, and you’ll be favourites again for every one of them. Fucking deluded.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Admit it, you were dreading England winning something. It’s doesn’t matter if we fluke it or deserve it, England winning a trophy hits hard into the Scottish psyche. Try getting past a first round then we might be able to have a conversation.

 

[Luddite_Blue]

Agree with this completely, especially your last sentence, as it is exactly what I have been saying for several years now.

The best way I can summarise my issue with Southgate is that in nearly every game he appeared to setup the team not to lose, rather than to win, and I just cannot tolerate that as a fan of football (not just England), especially when it leads to no actual silverware.

And, in this recent tournament, his spinelessness when it came to Bellingham, allowing him to essentially take over the team and make it all about himself, forcing half the team to play out of position to allow Bellingham a free role, to England’s detriment, infuriated me.

The essence of English football is being on the front foot and having a go, the very opposite of Southgate's approach.

 

[Ste68]

You’re right, I didn’t want them to win, not for the reasons you think. I wanted a team who played great football to win. Not a team who haven’t had a tough game in years, who were utter shit to watch win. Bad for the game.

I have no problem scots , Irish and welsh not wanting England to win another trophy. Despite having Welsh , Irish and Scots relatives I would hate to see them lift a trophy (support them winning games but trophy winning would be a step to far). That's just part of the football makeup. I do think England though will inevitably win a trophy in the next 10 years as the money being invested in the academies by PL clubs and the hours that players can train in those academies now matching the rest of the world will produce a high volume of technically gifted players - that's what I think more than anything has led to the current crop.

 

[lust overlord]

With the ultra cautious way Southgate set up he put himself in a position, to me, where he had to win it to get any real credit.

I'd argue that Ron Greenwood in 1982, Bobby Robson in 1990 and Terry Venables in 1996, who were all better club managers. produced better campaigns than any Southgate has.

In Spain 1982 England went home undefeated beating the France team of Platini, Battiston, Rocheteau and Giresse (and who would win the Euros 2 years later) to top the group. Results in other groups meant England faced West Germany and Spain in a 3 team group for a place in the semi finals whereas runners up France got Northern Ireland and Austria. The West Germany team of Stielike, Manny Kaltz, Breitner and Rummenigge (who'd won the Euros 2 years previously) were content enough with a 0-0 draw with England, then beat Spain 2-1 and England were unable to get the 2-0 victory needed against the hosts to proceed.

In 1990 Robson's England got better game by game really digging deep to overcome Belgium and Cameroon before losing an epic semi final on penalties to the West Germany of Breheme, Hassler, Matthaus, Voller and Klinsmann.

In 1996 England played well after the first game notably hammering a Dutch team containing Van der Sar, Seedorf, de Boer and Bergkamp 4-1 before being a Gascoigne toe nail away from beating a Matthias Sammer inspired Germany and subsequently losing on penalties.

In all of the above the draws were unfavourable with less difficult teams awaiting in the finals of 1990 and 1996. England played on the front foot, had a real go, left no regrets and were undone by a bit of misfortune and quality German sides of real resilience who didn't actually beat us over 90/120 minutes.

The overwhelming sense left by the Southgate campaigns is one of "What If" where he's had the best collection of English attacking talent in 15 years, and with quite comfortably the most expensive squad in the competition, I think if he'd had a real go and come up short

The essence of English football is being on the front foot and having a go, the very opposite of Southgate's approach.

To be fair,we used to come up short when the chips were down.
We'd often get beat by tenacious resilient opponents often in slightly unlucky circumstances.

Southgates past England playing experience has led to what he's served up as England manager in this era.

The truth is that more of our players nowadays are technically better than those days,as well as being more streetwise with the shithousery that is prevalent now.

 

[Luddite_Blue]

Agree with this completely, especially your last sentence, as it is exactly what I have been saying for several years now.

The best way I can summarise my issue with Southgate is that in nearly every game he appeared to setup the team not to lose, rather than to win, and I just cannot tolerate that as a fan of football (not just England), especially when it leads to no actual silverware.

And, in this recent tournament, his spinelessness when it came to Bellingham, allowing him to essentially take over the team and make it all about himself, forcing half the team to play out of position to allow Bellingham a free role, to England’s detriment, infuriated me.

I thought Bellingham did better in the final than previous games, where he'd be sitting in the stands if he'd played like that for a Pep team, but as has been mentioned on here he is definitely Pogba like and individual talented players can raise their games against better opponents.

But to me this raises the issue of Grealish. I accept that England won't be able to play as patiently as City as it takes an awful lot of work and inspiration on the training ground and I don't think neither the pundits (like Lee "Get the ball forward quickly" Dixon) nor England fans would accept it. However Arsenal play in a similar way to City so if there's Rice, Saka, Foden and Grealish in the team then surely they must be able to keep hold of the ball and if Bellingham is then added to it he could be told to "Pass the fucking ball".

And talking of club combinations Maguire had been dire for the rags for years, Southgate hadn't blooded any replacements in all these internationals they play and to me got lucky with Guehi. However if he'd stumbled on Guehi 6 months earlier then it would had raised the issue of taking Tyrick Mitchell as the left footed left back. Then with club partnerships and understandings all over the pitch it wouldn't be that difficult to introduce a basic form of possession based football.

I've seen you mention Ramsdale as the keeper and I think that was also very unfortunate for England that he was dropped by Arsenal. If Southgate had any courage then dropping Pickford for Ramsdale would had been his Pep/Joe Hart moment.


The below team surely must be able to keep possession and there's also players in there who can produce big moments:


Ramsdale

Walker
Stones
Guehi
Mitchell

Rice
Bellingham
Foden

Saka
Kane/Watkins
Grealish