Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEASE!!!

[NipHolmes]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

Cheers for reply, and for the link.

Here's a great site supplying the match I mentioned.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2013/04/09/borussia-dortmund-vs-malaga-3-2-highlights-2013-champions-league-joaquin-eliseu-lewandowski-reus-santana-goals-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2013/04/0 ... als-video/</a>

This game was the strong Dortmund (pre-Bayern ram raid and injuries that rivals Arsenals record). Malaga were of course huge underdogs but they nearly pulled off a coup. Pellegrini nailed it to the fucking wall that day.

 

[Paul_Powers_Tash]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

Once again Pellegrini proves he's a one trick pony. He has his plan A 4-2-2-2- and a small modification 4-2-2-1-1 that he no doubt refers to as plan B. Thankfully this works most of the time in the domestic competitions, but when it comes to outsmarting the best managers in the game in the CL we come away second best.

For everyone out there scratching their heads wondering why we get out played in the CL let me let you in to a little secret, it’s not the players fault. We have an amazing array of talented players but we consistently fail to take account the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition and fail to put together a plan to contain them, and then beat them. No matter what we play plan A or plan B.

Until we start to be more aware of the opposition and be humble enough to recognise their strengths and ruthlessly expose their weaknesses we will forever underperform at the highest level because we will be beaten by managers and teams that do.

We have one of the best squads in world football and I often wonder how we progress in the CL and at home if Mourhinio was our manager? On reflection, imperious in the Prem and mentioned in the same breath as Madrid, Barca and Munich abroad?
Please tell me I’m wrong and why.

 

[NipHolmes]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

Once again Pellegrini proves he's a one trick pony. He has his plan A 4-2-2-2- and a small modification 4-2-2-1-1 that he no doubt refers to as plan B. Thankfully this works most of the time in the domestic competitions, but when it comes to outsmarting the best managers in the game in the CL we come away second best.

For everyone out there scratching their heads wondering why we get out played in the CL let me let you in to a little secret, it’s not the players fault. We have an amazing array of talented players but we consistently fail to take account the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition and fail to put together a plan to contain them, and then beat them. No matter what we play plan A or plan B.

Until we start to be more aware of the opposition and be humble enough to recognise their strengths and ruthlessly expose their weaknesses we will forever underperform at the highest level because we will be beaten by managers and teams that do.

We have one of the best squads in world football and I often wonder how we progress in the CL and at home if Mourhinio was our manager? On reflection, imperious in the Prem and mentioned in the same breath as Madrid, Barca and Munich abroad?
Please tell me I’m wrong and why.

I agree 100%

Huge Jose fan personally, imo he is a genius.

Back to the point Pellegrini is shoehorning us but he has shown versatility already. We have set up 4-2-3-1 but we have not yet had Mangala, Fernando, Fernandinho and Yaya all fit at once. Aguero can be our Messi and I like seeing him on his own, he's mustard.

 

[FantasyIreland]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

Aguero can be our Messi and I like seeing him on his own, he's mustard.

Definitely,he doesn't like having a partner as his play is so selfish.Its similar with Dzeko,both are better as lone men.
Our whole team is more fluid and cohesive when deployed in this manner.

 

[John.des]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

We are yet to see a Fernando-Fernandinho-Yaya trio from the start if I am correct.

Funny because fernando is a holding midfielder, always was and played at the base of a trio in Porto. not in a duo like here with Yaya mostly who doesnt run back to help out or tackle or etc 90 % of the times.

Then we have Fernandinho who played at a very good Sahtar but he isnt holding midfielder, he played there mostly last year and did well but not so much suited yet he had to play there as only other options were Garcia and Rodwell.
But he played in the middle of a midfield trio at Sahtar. He had lot of energy to run all game but always he had one team mate behind him for tackles, keeping CB's safe.

As Yaya cant be trusted with off the ball work(workrate) we really should try this trio as it hopefully would give us enough stability in the middle from the start. Maybe fullbacks could go ahead to attack lot more on both sides. Maybe Yaya could play closer to the goal where he is really dangerous.He is good at controlling games deeper but just doesnt work hard when we dont have the ball and we have a whole there in his position, its a weakess and teams punish this from time to time.

We have an original holding midfielder in Fernando, a CM, box-to-box type in Fernandinho, at least thats what he played in Sahtar for years and was a good performer what probably made him our target...

Of course this brings us the problem fthat for a 433 we would need someone from the wings with lot of pace that can score and create in the mould of Robben, Ribery, Reus, CR etc. I can only see it in Jovetic in our squad. But he isnt so fast.
We have Navas, Nasri, Milner, none of them good for 433 wide role.Navas hardly beats defenders, does well when he has lot of place to run into and cross but when its not about counterattacks he just doesnt do much.
Milner not much different, just less pace and more workrate.
Nasri not intensive enough for this.

But we still have to give up 442 as it makes attacking and creating chances against us easy. Too open, not enough discipline, running, workrate from a set of players when its get hard. Defenders for this reason tend to make more and bigger mistakes. And we end up with another disappointment as usual...

Just watch the 10-20 seconds before CSKA pen awarded and their first goal.Things leading up to their goal, to their pen...
Or Totti's goal or Boateng's...

Pellegrini needs to get the defending right. Thats the basic. Ad its not just about the 4 defenders and their marking. It starts with how the striker, winger moves and what they do when we lose a ball, or when we cross it ends up at a keeper who throws it off. What does the winger, striker attcking cm does and how fast they are. Thats where defending starts. If its not with pressing them as we dont do that then it has to be tracking back.

 

[bluechampion7891]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

couple of points in relation to 3 man midfield and how we deploy it/are likely to deploy it:

1) Pellegrini did eventually bring on Fernandinho but we still conceded. In fact the three time I remember Fernando and Fernandinho together (today, v newcastle and v spurs) we looked much more disjointed. Further more whenever I have seen us play with 3 CMs Yaya actually acts as a second striker which really removes his influence from the game. We act as a 4411 rather than a 4123. IMO if Fernando is holding, Yaya should get deeper and have Fernandinho besides him to shuttle up and down - it should be more effective. Playing Yaya as #10 is simply wasting his most important attribute, namely control, which is nullified when he is up the pitch.
2) For a permanent shift to 433 (or 4123), we need at least a goal scoring Winger and a goal scoring box to box midfielder (alongside a controller - Yaya in our case). Jovetic may prove to be that (he can play left inside forward) but he doesn't possess the pace threat that say a Reus or Ribery does, and the jury is still out on him. Fernandinho is our only pure box to box CM (Milner too but not as good) and he is only good for 5-7 league goals whereas we probably need 10-12 from B2B CM. For example Ramsey would be great in this set up.
3) In CL games we cant have both Yaya and Silva together (let alone Yaya, Silva and Nasri). Looking back at point 1) we would be setup as a 4411 with Yaya completely free of defensive duties and Silva's side will be exposed. I have seen Silva getting some slag for lack of tracking back in the past two weeks but I honestly think that's a bit harsh. For a player of his physical stature and his role in the team he isn't primarily supposed to do that but in spite of that he does track back and gets stuck in and is far better at it than the likes of Hazard, Nasri etc. But due to his tendency to move inwards and his lack of physicality his side gets exposed. He is one of the most willing attacking flair-minded players I have seen that track back. If anything its his passing and first touch that have been off these past 2 games.

 

[Rösler von Stretfordbömber]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

couple of points in relation to 3 man midfield and how we deploy it/are likely to deploy it:

1) Pellegrini did eventually bring on Fernandinho but we still conceded. In fact the three time I remember Fernando and Fernandinho together (today, v newcastle and v spurs) we looked much more disjointed. Further more whenever I have seen us play with 3 CMs Yaya actually acts as a second striker which really removes his influence from the game. We act as a 4411 rather than a 4123. IMO if Fernando is holding, Yaya should get deeper and have Fernandinho besides him to shuttle up and down - it should be more effective. Playing Yaya as #10 is simply as waste as his most important attribute, namely control, is nullified when he is up the pitch.
2) For a permanent shift to 433 (or 4123), we need at least a goal scoring Winger and a goal scoring box to box midfielder (alongside a controller - Yaya in our case). Jovetic may prove to be that (he can play left inside forward) but he doesn't possess the pace threat that say a Reus or Ribery does, and the jury is still out on him. Fernandinho is our only pure box to box CM (Milner too but not as good) and he is only good for 5-7 league goals whereas we probably need 10-12 from B2B CM. For example Ramsey would be great in this set up.
3) In CL games we cant have both Yaya and Silva together (let alone Yaya, Silva and Nasri). Looking back at point 1) we would be setup as a 4411 with Yaya completely free of defensive duties and Silva's side will be exposed. I have seen Silva getting some slag for lack of tracking back in the past two weeks but I honestly think that's a bit harsh. For a player of his physical stature and his role in the team he isn't primarily supposed to do that but in spite of that he does track back and gets stuck in and is far better at it than the likes of Hazard, Nasri etc. But due to his tendency to move inwards and his lack of physicality his side gets exposed. He is one of the most willing attacking flair-minded players I have seen that track back. If anything its his passing and first touch that have been off these past 2 games.

Nonsense. Don't you know that all results (in EUROPE only of course) are solely down to whether or not one plays with TWO STRIKERS?

No, no, it's true. The media say so. Play TWO STRIKERS and lose. Play ONE STRIKER and win. It really is that easy. Pellers out!

Oh, also, this is true whether or not one plays FC Nagorno Karabakh at home or Bayern Munich away. It is EUROPE, you see. Two strikers = loss every single time.

 

[bluechampion7891]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

We are yet to see a Fernando-Fernandinho-Yaya trio from the start if I am correct.

Funny because fernando is a holding midfielder, always was and played at the base of a trio in Porto. not in a duo like here with Yaya mostly who doesnt run back to help out or tackle or etc 90 % of the times.

Then we have Fernandinho who played at a very good Sahtar but he isnt holding midfielder, he played there mostly last year and did well but not so much suited yet he had to play there as only other options were Garcia and Rodwell.
But he played in the middle of a midfield trio at Sahtar. He had lot of energy to run all game but always he had one team mate behind him for tackles, keeping CB's safe.

As Yaya cant be trusted with off the ball work(workrate) we really should try this trio as it hopefully would give us enough stability in the middle from the start. Maybe fullbacks could go ahead to attack lot more on both sides. Maybe Yaya could play closer to the goal where he is really dangerous.He is good at controlling games deeper but just doesnt work hard when we dont have the ball and we have a whole there in his position, its a weakess and teams punish this from time to time.

We have an original holding midfielder in Fernando, a CM, box-to-box type in Fernandinho, at least thats what he played in Sahtar for years and was a good performer what probably made him our target...

Of course this brings us the problem fthat for a 433 we would need someone from the wings with lot of pace that can score and create in the mould of Robben, Ribery, Reus, CR etc. I can only see it in Jovetic in our squad. But he isnt so fast.
We have Navas, Nasri, Milner, none of them good for 433 wide role.Navas hardly beats defenders, does well when he has lot of place to run into and cross but when its not about counterattacks he just doesnt do much.
Milner not much different, just less pace and more workrate.
Nasri not intensive enough for this.

But we still have to give up 442 as it makes attacking and creating chances against us easy. Too open, not enough discipline, running, workrate from a set of players when its get hard. Defenders for this reason tend to make more and bigger mistakes. And we end up with another disappointment as usual...

Just watch the 10-20 seconds before CSKA pen awarded and their first goal.Things leading up to their goal, to their pen...
Or Totti's goal or Boateng's...

Pellegrini needs to get the defending right. Thats the basic. Ad its not just about the 4 defenders and their marking. It starts with how the striker, winger moves and what they do when we lose a ball, or when we cross it ends up at a keeper who throws it off. What does the winger, striker attcking cm does and how fast they are. Thats where defending starts. If its not with pressing them as we dont do that then it has to be tracking back.

Haha you beat me to it. I have posted almost exactly this in my previous post.

As for the bolded portion, this is the part that needs emphasis. Whenever I have seen this trio, its like:

a)
---Fernando--------Fernandinho
---------------Yaya---------------------

Yaya is cut off and too much further up the pitch. I do not know why Pellegrini does it. In fact, this would be much more effective if we want a 2DM-1AM midfield:

b)
---Fernando--------Fernandinho
---------------Silva---------------------

a) gives us an illusion of a 3 man midfield. Yaya does nothing defensively in that role and is too high up the pitch, whereas with a b) like midfield we beat Bayern away. It also allows us to protect our flanks much better and allows Silva to flourish.

What I'd like to see in a 3 CM midfield is this:

c)
-----------------Fernando------------------
------Fernandinho----Yaya---------------

its what both Fernandinho and Fernando are used to as you have pointed out. It also allows Yaya to control from a deeper position, doesn't put off his defensive duties (even if he doesnt carry them out, unlike in a) where he is basically given a free role).

 

[bluechampion7891]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

couple of points in relation to 3 man midfield and how we deploy it/are likely to deploy it:

1) Pellegrini did eventually bring on Fernandinho but we still conceded. In fact the three time I remember Fernando and Fernandinho together (today, v newcastle and v spurs) we looked much more disjointed. Further more whenever I have seen us play with 3 CMs Yaya actually acts as a second striker which really removes his influence from the game. We act as a 4411 rather than a 4123. IMO if Fernando is holding, Yaya should get deeper and have Fernandinho besides him to shuttle up and down - it should be more effective. Playing Yaya as #10 is simply as waste as his most important attribute, namely control, is nullified when he is up the pitch.
2) For a permanent shift to 433 (or 4123), we need at least a goal scoring Winger and a goal scoring box to box midfielder (alongside a controller - Yaya in our case). Jovetic may prove to be that (he can play left inside forward) but he doesn't possess the pace threat that say a Reus or Ribery does, and the jury is still out on him. Fernandinho is our only pure box to box CM (Milner too but not as good) and he is only good for 5-7 league goals whereas we probably need 10-12 from B2B CM. For example Ramsey would be great in this set up.
3) In CL games we cant have both Yaya and Silva together (let alone Yaya, Silva and Nasri). Looking back at point 1) we would be setup as a 4411 with Yaya completely free of defensive duties and Silva's side will be exposed. I have seen Silva getting some slag for lack of tracking back in the past two weeks but I honestly think that's a bit harsh. For a player of his physical stature and his role in the team he isn't primarily supposed to do that but in spite of that he does track back and gets stuck in and is far better at it than the likes of Hazard, Nasri etc. But due to his tendency to move inwards and his lack of physicality his side gets exposed. He is one of the most willing attacking flair-minded players I have seen that track back. If anything its his passing and first touch that have been off these past 2 games.

Nonsense. Don't you know that all results (in EUROPE only of course) are solely down to whether or not one plays with TWO STRIKERS?

No, no, it's true. The media say so. Play TWO STRIKERS and lose. Play ONE STRIKER and win. It really is that easy. Pellers out!

Oh, also, this is true whether or not one plays FC Nagorno Karabakh at home or Bayern Munich away. It is EUROPE, you see. Two strikers = loss every single time.

I dont think todays loss was down to 2 strikers or 2 CMs only. Indeed we did get countered but against the likes of CSKA which are basically equivalent to a mid table PL team we can get by with 2 CMs. What surprises me the most reading all th posts in the post match thread that point to this two man MF as a major issue is that in the second half CSKA were also playing 442 , so they didnt have any advantage whatsoever. We, collectively, as a team were shit and having only 2 CMs was far from the reason why we lost.

On a separate note, Atletico Madrid got to the CL final playing 442. ofcourse different personnel, tenacity, work rate matter but simply blaming 442 for our loss today is simplying the issue

 

[FantasyIreland]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

I dont think todays loss was down to 2 strikers or 2 CMs only. Indeed we did get countered but against the likes of CSKA which are basically equivalent to a mid table PL team we can get by with 2 CMs. What surprises me the most reading all th posts in the post match thread that point to this two man MF as a major issue is that in the second half CSKA were also playing 442 , so they didnt have any advantage whatsoever. We, collectively, as a team were shit and having only 2 CMs was far from the reason why we lost.

On a separate note, Atletico Madrid got to the CL final playing 442. ofcourse different personnel, tenacity, work rate matter but simply blaming 442 for our loss today is simplying the issue

The result was 2-2 pal.