Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEASE!!!

[tonea2003]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

ball retention was appalling second half

Was the same against Spurs for large parts of the match.

As I said in the post match thread, the biggest problem last night was just how rubbish Kun, Dzeko, Silva, Milner, Yaya, were in the second half. We're a team who normally finish games much stronger than we start them. Sadly regardless of the personnel and tactics, last night we were weak in our play and in our game intelligence. The third goal could've been scored probably half a dozen time yet it never came because of our players making a weak pass, weak shot, choosing the wrong option. You can't legislate for this and it has nothing to do with what the tactical shape of the team was, just as you can't legislate for more awful awful officiating. Put the two together and you've got a recipe for dropped points.

that's the crux of the matter we could and have been out of sight by half time which would have negated any moaning about officials

 

[Ban-jani]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

Great post OP

We are so suited to it.

 

[BillyShears]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

ball retention was appalling second half

Was the same against Spurs for large parts of the match.

As I said in the post match thread, the biggest problem last night was just how rubbish Kun, Dzeko, Silva, Milner, Yaya, were in the second half. We're a team who normally finish games much stronger than we start them. Sadly regardless of the personnel and tactics, last night we were weak in our play and in our game intelligence. The third goal could've been scored probably half a dozen time yet it never came because of our players making a weak pass, weak shot, choosing the wrong option. You can't legislate for this and it has nothing to do with what the tactical shape of the team was, just as you can't legislate for more awful awful officiating. Put the two together and you've got a recipe for dropped points.

that's the crux of the matter we could and have been out of sight by half time which would have negated any moaning about officials

For whatever reason we haven't got the killer instinct we had around this time last season. IMO we're creating an equal number of chances (although i've no stats to back that up), but we aren't putting the ball in the back of the net nearly enough.

If i wanted to be more precise, I'd say that with Negredo gone we need our midfield to step up with more goals. Right now we're not getting them from Yaya, nor from Silva, nor from Milner (he could've had a hat trick last night), nor from Navas. If our midfielders took more of the chances that fall their way we'd be scoring more and it'd take the pressure off Kun and Dzeko. They're all capable of it.

 

[supercity88]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

I think it is far too easy to blame the formation when results don't go our way. Would we have created the chances needed with a 4-3-3 last night? We were 2-0 up and whilst they had chances, it was largely through Yaya diving in and not tracking runners - that was leaving a lot of space. I think last season was the last year Yaya can play in a central 2. Whether it be age, mentality or laziness - he isn't pulling his weight in that central area and therefore to play him we need two players behind him covering the ground.

I agree with the OP in that 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 or whatever variation of - is the way to go. It's the standard style of play most top sides are going with. Having said that, we were poor in the second half yesterday and I cannot agree that 4-4-2 wasn't good enough to win that game. Another thread has popped up questionning mentality and that is key for me. Look at Bayern last night - 7-1 away at Roma. They never stopped. We were 2-0 up and the team we likely were competing for had a goal difference advantage that qualification may have (though unlikely) decided. We took our foot off the gas, didn't create a single chance and then blamed the situation with the fans, the cold etc. We needed to go out and get another goal early in the second half and then switch to one up top, bolster midfield and throw on Navas and have pace on the counter. Or just keep the ball.

As it is, Roma got battered and fortunately for us, Bayern will want to beat them and qualify as group winners in the next game. That means they won't be too concerned by our game and will likely rest players. Going into the deciding game at Roma we should still be in a position whereby we can qualify - and I don't think we will even need to beat them in Rome.

 

[cibaman]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

For a 3 of Yaya, Fernando and Fernandhino to work, one of them has to play predominantly on the left. Otherwise they're too central, too compact and we dont plug that basic weakness on the left side of our defense. None of the three seem suited to playing on the left.

For that system to work we really need a Gareth Barry.

 

[Danamy]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

I'm still wearing my 4-2-3-1 badge :-)

 

[bluechampion7891]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

We are yet to see a Fernando-Fernandinho-Yaya trio from the start if I am correct.

Funny because fernando is a holding midfielder, always was and played at the base of a trio in Porto. not in a duo like here with Yaya mostly who doesnt run back to help out or tackle or etc 90 % of the times.

Then we have Fernandinho who played at a very good Sahtar but he isnt holding midfielder, he played there mostly last year and did well but not so much suited yet he had to play there as only other options were Garcia and Rodwell.
But he played in the middle of a midfield trio at Sahtar. He had lot of energy to run all game but always he had one team mate behind him for tackles, keeping CB's safe.

As Yaya cant be trusted with off the ball work(workrate) we really should try this trio as it hopefully would give us enough stability in the middle from the start. Maybe fullbacks could go ahead to attack lot more on both sides. Maybe Yaya could play closer to the goal where he is really dangerous.He is good at controlling games deeper but just doesnt work hard when we dont have the ball and we have a whole there in his position, its a weakess and teams punish this from time to time.

We have an original holding midfielder in Fernando, a CM, box-to-box type in Fernandinho, at least thats what he played in Sahtar for years and was a good performer what probably made him our target...

Of course this brings us the problem fthat for a 433 we would need someone from the wings with lot of pace that can score and create in the mould of Robben, Ribery, Reus, CR etc. I can only see it in Jovetic in our squad. But he isnt so fast.
We have Navas, Nasri, Milner, none of them good for 433 wide role.Navas hardly beats defenders, does well when he has lot of place to run into and cross but when its not about counterattacks he just doesnt do much.
Milner not much different, just less pace and more workrate.
Nasri not intensive enough for this.

But we still have to give up 442 as it makes attacking and creating chances against us easy. Too open, not enough discipline, running, workrate from a set of players when its get hard. Defenders for this reason tend to make more and bigger mistakes. And we end up with another disappointment as usual...

Just watch the 10-20 seconds before CSKA pen awarded and their first goal.Things leading up to their goal, to their pen...
Or Totti's goal or Boateng's...

Pellegrini needs to get the defending right. Thats the basic. Ad its not just about the 4 defenders and their marking. It starts with how the striker, winger moves and what they do when we lose a ball, or when we cross it ends up at a keeper who throws it off. What does the winger, striker attcking cm does and how fast they are. Thats where defending starts. If its not with pressing them as we dont do that then it has to be tracking back.

Haha you beat me to it. I have posted almost exactly this in my previous post.

As for the bolded portion, this is the part that needs emphasis. Whenever I have seen this trio, its like:

a)
---Fernando--------Fernandinho
---------------Yaya---------------------

Yaya is cut off and too much further up the pitch. I do not know why Pellegrini does it. In fact, this would be much more effective if we want a 2DM-1AM midfield:

b)
---Fernando--------Fernandinho
---------------Silva---------------------

a) gives us an illusion of a 3 man midfield. Yaya does nothing defensively in that role and is too high up the pitch, whereas with a b) like midfield we beat Bayern away. It also allows us to protect our flanks much better and allows Silva to flourish.

What I'd like to see in a 3 CM midfield is this:

c)
-----------------Fernando------------------
------Fernandinho----Yaya---------------

its what both Fernandinho and Fernando are used to as you have pointed out. It also allows Yaya to control from a deeper position, doesn't put off his defensive duties (even if he doesnt carry them out, unlike in a) where he is basically given a free role).

You've got Yaya playing on the left of midfield. He doesnt do that, he plays centrally. When Fernando and Yaya are in the same team they essentially line up in a straight line with Yaya about 25m further forward than Fernando. In that line up Fernandhino would be forced to play wide right.

not left midfield, LCM

full front 6:
--------------------------Fernando---------------------------
-----------------Yaya-------------Fernandinho------------
Silva-----------------------------------------------Jovetic----
------------------------Aguero--------------------------------

 

[crystal_mais]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

How about 3 5 1 1 - With MDM, Vinney, Mangala - at the back - 2 wingbacks, 3 in middle, Merlin, Nasri, Jov or Navas floating behind a striker

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

It's not having a two man midfield that's the problem in games like last night's. It's having one of them who can't tackle.

 

[Badz]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

I partially blame pellegrini for our poor performance. There are basic things that he keeps getting wrong and that annoys the crap out of me. I only spend 90 mins a week watching these guys play and I see it, why can't he when he's with them fkn everyday.

1. Never ever start kolarov and silva on the same side. Silva will end up doing all the defending and tracking back by himself and that's how he will get injured.

2. Yaya should never start in an only 2 man midfield until he is back to 100%

3. Silva is a playmaker not a winger. Every time he starts on the wing, you see him on the other side with Milner making 1-2 passes trying to create something

4. Silva needs to learn how to take risks and take the Damn shot. So many times he gets inside the box and it's a clear shot, decides to pass it off. But when playing for Spain, he's taking shots outside the box???

5. 2 strikers is so 80s. I can't name one top team that uses 2 strikers as much as we do. Germany won the World Cup pretty much without using a striker, just six midfielders running around. Put yaya upfront since he never tracks back ;)

6. The last thing I'd like to point out is forget about "attractive football" or "we try to play the best football". If you're winning an important game 2-0, throw in a DM and take off a striker. We need to learn how to hold a lead, control the game and take 3 points. Sometimes you have to win ugly but it's a win regardless and that's what counts.